pool filter sand warning!!

john C

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Jan 4, 2007
958
29
61
ohio
hey well things are not to a great start this morning i have to drain a 300 gal because drain plug leaks after silicon it . and the other 300 i got set up to cycle i placed pool filter sand in it to save a buck. the sand that i used was labeled aqua quartz witch i thought that quarts was suppose to be the right sand. i pinched this sand to determine if it was sharp and compared to sand from my other tanks that has aquarium sand and i could not tell the difference. so i called the manufacturer to find out that all the sand they make is silica and i asked her not knowing my minerals is quartz the same as silica she said yes. i guess this is what i get for tiring to save a buck. i talked to someone about this the other day and he said that he wondered if it is a location thing like one state could have excess stone that a not her may not have. so its a strike out on the pool filter sand and make me wounder how many of you are using this with it being a silica sand.:nilly:

pool filter sand 006.JPG
 

JD7.62

Dovii
MFK Member
Sep 13, 2005
5,512
44
105
at the 'Bama Breeze
Are you planning on starting out with pups? If not and you are starting out with larger rays and if it "feels" no different then your other sand, my bet would be that it is ok. I use cheap quickcrete sand (like $3 for a 50lb bag at walmart) and though it has some sharp edges, my rays are perfectly fine.
 

PoopSmart

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Jun 26, 2007
1,418
5
68
mars
Quartz is the exact same thing as silica...Pure quartz is silicon oxide (SiO2). Just tell me what you think the main ingredient in silica sand is. :)


Seriously, I am going to end this myth. You aren't the only one who thinks this way too, so don't feel like I calling you out specifically or anything ok?

By Rob Toonen. Posted to Reefkeepers emailing list, Saturday 18th September 1999.
I can't remember who said it anymore, and I don't really want to single anyone out, but the statement that buying cheap sand that contains quartz will ruin your tank is plain-and-simple bunk. I'm not sure where the idea that silica sand is dangerous to a reef tank came from, but typically silica sand is 99.0-99.9% SiO2 (depending on the source and grade), which is about the exact same chemical composition as the glass of your aquarium. If the addition of pure quartz sand is somehow dangerous to keeping a reef tank, we'd better all get our animals out of glass aquaria...
Quartz (SiO2) is considered "totally insoluble" in water according to the US MSDS, and is also nontoxic (although inhalation of silica has many well-documented health risks for humans -- I'll explain at the bottom if anyone cares). Yes, water is a "universal solvent" and yes, everything (including the silicone) dissolves slightly into the water over time, but the amount of dissolution is so low that it is impossible for it to make a difference to your aquarium. There certainly are highly soluble forms of silica that will increase the level of dissolved silicates in the water (such as aluminosilicate) and are likely to cause problems, but quartz sand (SiO2) is not one of them.
The fact is that quartz sand (and the walls of our aquarium and even the silicone rubber which is the most soluble of the lot) do not dissolve enough in seawater to be measurable If silica sand contributed in any significant way to dissolved silica, then you would expect there to be big differences in the silica concentration around sandy beaches and on calcareous beaches (such as the red "sand" of Bermuda, which is composed mainly of calcareous foraminiferan skeletons) but there are not -- although calcium concentrations do vary significantly, the silica concentration in either location is about the same (roughly 2 ppm everywhere other than adjacent to the mouths of rivers where FW inputs increase the level). That suggests to me that quartz sand doesn't make much of a difference to the silicate concentration of seawater. Silica gets into water by being in a more soluble form than SiO2 (such as aluminosilicate), and the most common source of contaminating silicate in aquaria is the freshwater used for top-off or mixing. In fact, normal river runoff entering the sea has 2-5 times the amount of dissolved silica present in the surrounding seawater (which as I just said is higher than the norm), and researchers studying oceanic silica cycles consider quartz sediments a "dead end" for silica (so little is released it does not contribute to the global silica budgets of the ocean -- if it doesn't make a difference on a global scale with all the silica sand in the ocean, how much difference do you think it can make in our tanks?). The major input of silicate into seawater remains freshwater runoff into the sea, not the minuscule (and unmeasurable) amount of dissolution from the *enormous* amount of quartz in the sea...
In fact, that same quartz sand that people are recommending against is what was smolted and fused to form the glass walls of your aquarium... I don't know exactly what (if any) chemical changes are involved with the smolting process, but according to the glassblower for the Department of Chemistry, it's just melted and reformed into the appropriate shape -- it's not really doing anything to the sand other than burning off any organic contamination in the sand (the melting point is about 3110F). Even after being formed, glass is still SiO2, so there isn't any reason to suspect that there are important chemical changes occurring. Also, there should be no changes occurring as the sand passes through the guts of the animals in the tank -- is no noticeable degradation of the SiO2 spicules from ingested sponge tissue as that passes through the guts of animals (such as angelfish, sea stars & urchins) adapted to eating sponges, and that's where you'd expect some effect of digestion if any was going to occur. Given that, it's pretty hard to argue that using quartz sand is bad when the glass box that you're putting it into is made of the same stuff.


This guy is arguing the chemical copmosition of silica sand (aka quartz) and its dangers. But the whole reason that silica sand would be dangerous for rays is because its somewhat abrasive. Like he said during the smolting process the silicon oxide is formed into shape. Thats the part that scares ray keepers, the shape. Quartz and silica are the exact same thing, what you need to look out for is if its razor sharp.

Whats even funnier is pool filter sand is burning off the contaminants, making it even more safe.

The whole reason I say this is because people told me to get quartz sand instead of silica, and I just pictured my little quartz crystal that I got when I was really young and thought it looked sharp, clear, and a lot like glass. I figured that they woudl have to have the same makeup. I first figured maybe quartz was harder, like a carbon compound, such as diamond. But I found that it was made out of silicone. I just thought well thats basically glass. Since Quartz isn't really as valuable as diamond (I wish, I have a huge rock of quartz, I could have a public aquarium for the price of its equivalent size in diamonds :) ) I just figured its probably similar to what glass is made of and I know silica sand is just glass (also the name silica was a dead giveaway for me as well being only 2 letters of from silicon) so I figured sand is made of all sorts of composites in the wild, and as long as they don't have sharp enough edges to cut the ray then it shouldn't pose a threat.
 

Miles

Stingray King
MFK Member
Jul 2, 2005
5,538
152
120
Spokane, WA
PoopSmart;1539563; said:
Quartz is the exact same thing as silica...Pure quartz is silicon oxide (SiO2). Just tell me what you think the main ingredient in silica sand is. :)


Seriously, I am going to end this myth. You aren't the only one who thinks this way too, so don't feel like I calling you out specifically or anything ok?

By Rob Toonen. Posted to Reefkeepers emailing list, Saturday 18th September 1999.
I can't remember who said it anymore, and I don't really want to single anyone out, but the statement that buying cheap sand that contains quartz will ruin your tank is plain-and-simple bunk. I'm not sure where the idea that silica sand is dangerous to a reef tank came from, but typically silica sand is 99.0-99.9% SiO2 (depending on the source and grade), which is about the exact same chemical composition as the glass of your aquarium. If the addition of pure quartz sand is somehow dangerous to keeping a reef tank, we'd better all get our animals out of glass aquaria...
Quartz (SiO2) is considered "totally insoluble" in water according to the US MSDS, and is also nontoxic (although inhalation of silica has many well-documented health risks for humans -- I'll explain at the bottom if anyone cares). Yes, water is a "universal solvent" and yes, everything (including the silicone) dissolves slightly into the water over time, but the amount of dissolution is so low that it is impossible for it to make a difference to your aquarium. There certainly are highly soluble forms of silica that will increase the level of dissolved silicates in the water (such as aluminosilicate) and are likely to cause problems, but quartz sand (SiO2) is not one of them.
The fact is that quartz sand (and the walls of our aquarium and even the silicone rubber which is the most soluble of the lot) do not dissolve enough in seawater to be measurable If silica sand contributed in any significant way to dissolved silica, then you would expect there to be big differences in the silica concentration around sandy beaches and on calcareous beaches (such as the red "sand" of Bermuda, which is composed mainly of calcareous foraminiferan skeletons) but there are not -- although calcium concentrations do vary significantly, the silica concentration in either location is about the same (roughly 2 ppm everywhere other than adjacent to the mouths of rivers where FW inputs increase the level). That suggests to me that quartz sand doesn't make much of a difference to the silicate concentration of seawater. Silica gets into water by being in a more soluble form than SiO2 (such as aluminosilicate), and the most common source of contaminating silicate in aquaria is the freshwater used for top-off or mixing. In fact, normal river runoff entering the sea has 2-5 times the amount of dissolved silica present in the surrounding seawater (which as I just said is higher than the norm), and researchers studying oceanic silica cycles consider quartz sediments a "dead end" for silica (so little is released it does not contribute to the global silica budgets of the ocean -- if it doesn't make a difference on a global scale with all the silica sand in the ocean, how much difference do you think it can make in our tanks?). The major input of silicate into seawater remains freshwater runoff into the sea, not the minuscule (and unmeasurable) amount of dissolution from the *enormous* amount of quartz in the sea...
In fact, that same quartz sand that people are recommending against is what was smolted and fused to form the glass walls of your aquarium... I don't know exactly what (if any) chemical changes are involved with the smolting process, but according to the glassblower for the Department of Chemistry, it's just melted and reformed into the appropriate shape -- it's not really doing anything to the sand other than burning off any organic contamination in the sand (the melting point is about 3110F). Even after being formed, glass is still SiO2, so there isn't any reason to suspect that there are important chemical changes occurring. Also, there should be no changes occurring as the sand passes through the guts of the animals in the tank -- is no noticeable degradation of the SiO2 spicules from ingested sponge tissue as that passes through the guts of animals (such as angelfish, sea stars & urchins) adapted to eating sponges, and that's where you'd expect some effect of digestion if any was going to occur. Given that, it's pretty hard to argue that using quartz sand is bad when the glass box that you're putting it into is made of the same stuff.


This guy is arguing the chemical copmosition of silica sand (aka quartz) and its dangers. But the whole reason that silica sand would be dangerous for rays is because its somewhat abrasive. Like he said during the smolting process the silicon oxide is formed into shape. Thats the part that scares ray keepers, the shape. Quartz and silica are the exact same thing, what you need to look out for is if its razor sharp.

Whats even funnier is pool filter sand is burning off the contaminants, making it even more safe.

The whole reason I say this is because people told me to get quartz sand instead of silica, and I just pictured my little quartz crystal that I got when I was really young and thought it looked sharp, clear, and a lot like glass. I figured that they woudl have to have the same makeup. I first figured maybe quartz was harder, like a carbon compound, such as diamond. But I found that it was made out of silicone. I just thought well thats basically glass. Since Quartz isn't really as valuable as diamond (I wish, I have a huge rock of quartz, I could have a public aquarium for the price of its equivalent size in diamonds :) ) I just figured its probably similar to what glass is made of and I know silica sand is just glass (also the name silica was a dead giveaway for me as well being only 2 letters of from silicon) so I figured sand is made of all sorts of composites in the wild, and as long as they don't have sharp enough edges to cut the ray then it shouldn't pose a threat.

Wow.. great Info. Should make an individual post for it.

I was informed by my local reefkeeping expert LFS that Silica sands in a saltwater tank, due to marine salt's corrosive nature, will fuel brown algae.. Sure enough, I mixed it 50/50 with aragonite and I was battling brown diatom algae alot. Not sure if it's a myth or was just my water chemistry, but the 2nd go around at my salt tank I used 100% aragonite and never had the issue..


I think sand for rays is :barf:
Barebottom or 'fine grain' gravel is my choice :D
 

Nic

Peacock Bass
MFK Member
Oct 8, 2005
15,790
14
119
outside philly
great info poopsmart.......... im still gonna play it 100% safe and stick with no sand.... barebottom all the way
 

PoopSmart

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Jun 26, 2007
1,418
5
68
mars
Nic;1539753; said:
great info poopsmart.......... im still gonna play it 100% safe and stick with no sand.... barebottom all the way
Oh me too eventually. In fact I am considering taking it out now. I really don't like how it gathers algae since nothing moves it around (I don't have my ray yet) and I can move the intakes closer to the bottom. I have thought it through and I think I will go barebottom.
 

PoopSmart

Fire Eel
MFK Member
Jun 26, 2007
1,418
5
68
mars
Miles;1539740; said:
Wow.. great Info. Should make an individual post for it.

I was informed by my local reefkeeping expert LFS that Silica sands in a saltwater tank, due to marine salt's corrosive nature, will fuel brown algae.. Sure enough, I mixed it 50/50 with aragonite and I was battling brown diatom algae alot. Not sure if it's a myth or was just my water chemistry, but the 2nd go around at my salt tank I used 100% aragonite and never had the issue..


I think sand for rays is :barf:
Barebottom or 'fine grain' gravel is my choice :D
Hey I have brown algae problems in my 75 with the silica sand! Hmm you think it has to do with how the mineral absorbs and emits the light? I mean if silica is glass its going to refract and intensify the light much more than an opaque sand like argonite.

I don't know, just some more thoughts.

But your test does sound completely accurate. I just don't know if its the culprit to my algae problems in my 75 as well. I will take it out and see. I never had these algae problems before when I had gravel and cichlids, but I had a pleco :D .

But anyway, I don't want to stray. I think if you want a cheap sand for rays then go with the pool filter sand (silica). It should be alright.
 

rudy

Polypterus
MFK Member
Jan 25, 2006
1,062
172
96
48
calgary
keepinfish;1539632; said:
i think it is fine, i have used it with rays with no problems
You probably keep motoros?

Motoros are the only rays I have found to be ok with silica sand.
 
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