Are we really treating our fish right?

[skjl47]

Hello; Spiff makes some fairly accurate points about our hobby. I have not encouraged people to take up the hobby for several decades now. I have seen too many cases of very poor managment first hand. I also have tried to only keep tank raised fish for some years.

There was a learning curve for me and I lost a number of fish before I gained some decent habits and practices. Many of my fish now survive for years. I cannot take back the various mistakes I made over the years.

Are we cruel as individual fish keepers? Are there collection, housing and transport practices that result in the loss of a lot of fish? My answer appears to be that I continue to buy and keep fish. i have been doing so for well over fifty years. I noticed the problems surrounding keeping fish a while back. I am not cruel on purpose and once fish make it to my tanks, they tend to do well.

This thread brings to mind a recent one about feeding live food vs. processed food. Some seemed to feel that the folks who fed living things to their pets as cruel and those using processed food as not cruel. A forum member pointed out that the killing of living things took place to make processed food. Processed foods have the killing of some animals at some stage for their protein, we just do not have to see it. The same for dog and cat food I submitt.


To Spiff, I agree that you may need to decide if this hobby suits your sensibilities. In the past after thinking about the many points you bring up, I decided to continue keeping fish. Even with knowing a considerable amount about the "bad" sides of the hobby. To each his own point of view.

 

[KNH]

Op nice thread. Whatever you believe about our hobby it's great to be educated and give thought to what we are doing.

 

[Oscarum monstruoso]

I have 3 EBJDs and a super red sev, fish that cannot survive in nature so I think Im good.

 

[spiff44]

Spiff do you have something against this hobby if so why are you in it.

Like I said, just playing devil's advocate.. I'm obviously for this hobby. Its just when I hear people saying things like how a certain demographic of society is trying to ruin all pet keeping, it just reeks of a hypocrisy of being extremely biased for the opposite view... exactly like I'm seeing here. As if I didn't see these comments coming..

I stand by everything I said though and know enough to know that the statements are all true. Change starts with awareness. Take the most extreme example.. coral.. I'm sure hobbyists certainly didn't want to hear about how much they were contributing to the decimation of coral reefs, but it instigated change. And I'm sure that the majority just took a closed minded view of ignorance because they just simply didn't want to hear it. Unfortunately it took the high prices of certain corals because of their declining availability due to pillaging to start real change. But at least now when you browse through coral forums you can see a responsible majority that insist on only buying captive raised. That mind set didn't happen overnight.

Regarding vet bills, never had them for cats except when I first get them. They're indoor cats, don't really need that.

 

[screaminleeman]

Yeah I've spent a ton on my dogs and cats. Spent thousands in vet bills, they eat the best food money can buy, and I buy them toys. Definitely would say that keeping a fish is cheaper. I suppose water and electricity costs would have to be factored in.....especially when you start talking about huge tanks. But still.....fish food is cheaper, nursing them back to health is cheaper, and getting them initially is (usually) cheaper.

Just out of curiosity, where do you find NLS or Hikari Massivore delight cheap?

I am paying in the neck of the woods of $60 for 5 pounds of NLS and $50 for 2 pounds of Massivore delight. I mean $12 per pound to $25 per pound is beyond UBER expensive IMO.

I though my dog was spoiled rotten NEVER eating "dog food". Poor Jingles, Here I though ribeye steak ($8 per pound) was a special occasion treat for her. Hell, I don't touch Fillet Mignon anymore (being a tight wad). If I stepped up to feeding Jingles bacon wrapped Fillet Mignon, it would still be less expensive than feeding my fish.

 

[eyespot]

Great thread. I've been in this hobby for 30 years give or take and my opinion is it's a selfish indulgence. The cons far outweigh the pros from an environmental perspective to the well-being of captive fish. I try to attend to the needs of all of my fish by not letting my eyes get bigger than my wallet and upgrading my tanks and equipment whenever possible. I have a large male managuense who I bred 8 years ago in a 195 that I feel is barely big enough for his needs. I don't really think fish are abstract thinkers who sit around contemplating the nature of the universe all day but by the same token every novice has seen how miserable a cichlid can be under bad care in insufficient housing. We like to assume they're completely stupid and emotionless because it's easier. The only fish keepers who generally give back anything are breeders who help relieve the stress on wild populations or keepers who share reliable experience and knowledge. I'm not a total hypocrite. I have now and in the past kept rare and wild caught fish that are too big to be reasonably kept by 99.9% of hobbyists including myself. As a group we're so preoccupied with maintaining our right to keep species like arapaimas or goonch cats or Goliath tiger fish or the other flavors of the month that nobody seems to care that only a tiny fraction of the private fish keeping population can even think of keeping these guys long term. We're (by and large) selfish. Once I saw this topic I knew at least one person was going to get mad and immediately fall back to the ever popular 'Love it or leave it' argument. That's inevitable but it's a great topic and there's nothing wrong with anybody taking a critical look at how we keep fish or the hobby in general. Maybe one novice reads this thread and decides not to go to Petsmart and come home with an Oscar for their 20 gallon tank. That's a good thing. Also I love to hug bunnies. All day long. Love the bunnies.

 

[ehh]

So eyespot wins at the thread.

It's hard to argue with his logic.




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[eyespot]

Thanks for the vote of confidence but those are just my 2 cents. I'm all for a lively debate.

 

[note2self]

Just out of curiosity, where do you find NLS or Hikari Massivore delight cheap?

I am paying in the neck of the woods of $60 for 5 pounds of NLS and $50 for 2 pounds of Massivore delight. I mean $12 per pound to $25 per pound is beyond UBER expensive IMO.

I though my dog was spoiled rotten NEVER eating "dog food". Poor Jingles, Here I though ribeye steak ($8 per pound) was a special occasion treat for her. Hell, I don't touch Fillet Mignon anymore (being a tight wad). If I stepped up to feeding Jingles bacon wrapped Fillet Mignon, it would still be less expensive than feeding my fish.

well I don't use NLS or Massivore. I get different varieties of Hikari Gold Cichlid food so that's probably why you pay more. 2lb bags of Massivore are 40 bucks where I live though. When it comes to my dog, I've had him on a couple different brands of processed food that ranged between $60-100 bucks a bag (usually between 20-30 pounds each). I just switched him to a raw diet so I expect the cost to come way down but still......people are paying those prices. Combine that with everything else and I think the cost of ownership is higher

 

[jwh]

Can't argue with either spiff or eyeball, far better to take the negatives that there are on board, deal with these as issues to be improved upon, and have a more ethical defensible and sustainable hobby than trying to shout the issues down.
Blind denials about factual issues will never win arguments, without self regulation you are bound to face imposed regulations down the line.