Captive Breeding - 2 likely Scenarios
- Thread starter Miles
- Start date
Dont really think there will be a discus like culture with rays.
Most breeders outside asia try to keep their bloodlines clean, and avoid hybrids.
There is no doubt that we will see P14s and leopldies with more spots in the future do to selective breeding.
And who knows what selective breeding will do to the BD´s?
we will see in time.
Most breeders outside asia try to keep their bloodlines clean, and avoid hybrids.
There is no doubt that we will see P14s and leopldies with more spots in the future do to selective breeding.
And who knows what selective breeding will do to the BD´s?
we will see in time.
I think it will be interesting to see what the state of the 'ray hobby' is in say 20 years. There are definetly some potential challenges on the horizon. If one really wants to try to keep a population of any species viable for the long term in captivity, that population must be managed. Without management it may do fine for quite a while, but will probably eventually run into problems. I agree with what someone said that it is likely that breeders will selectively breed for desired traits- color, pattern, perhaps size, ability to fare well in the captive environment and probably many other things. This is not the same thing as managing for genetic diversity, and without actively managing the population to maintain genetic diversity the gene pool will shrink over the long term. Usually that is a bad thing, although there are wild species that have very low genetic diversity- the cheetah for example. With the current situation where there are still wild caught adults that are reproducing there is still the potential to maintain that genetic diversity in the captive population. Even brother/sister breeding is probably not that big a deal in the short term if those siblings are the progeny of wild caught parents (although it is possible that it is a problem- some species are much more sensitive to inbreeding than others and I'm not convinced that we know enough about rays to know if they are one of those species). The problem amplifies when those siblings breed and produce offspring that then breed with each other and so on. Eventually you're going to run into a problem.
The potential problem is greater than this when you throw the hybrid issue into the mix. First of all- while right now hybrids appear to be healthy and reproductively viable, perhaps as much as non-hybrids, this may not always be the case. Again, we don't yet know enough about where rays are on the path of evolution. They may be just starting down that road and still have very similiar genes, but then again they may not. Hybrid genes are probably not going to match up as well as for non-hybrids. You might not see the effect of this in the short term, but 5, 10, 20 generations down the line I would be very suprised if there is not a drop in reproductive ability. For 'designer rays' maybe this does not matter- you go back to the origional species and follow the same recipe to create the same animal again. The scary thing is what about hybrids that sneak into what you are trying to maintain as non-hybrids? Every time I see someone post a picture and ask the group if they think the animal is a hybrid or not it concerns me, especially when someone responds that it is definetly a true leo or true henlei or whatever. You absolutely cannot know for certian based on a picture. If you do not know for certain, and your goal is to maintain a species you must assume that it is a hybrid. It only takes one of these individuals sneaking into your population to potentially 'hybridize' the entire lot! Once these genes get mixed into the population it will be very difficult if not impossible to turn back the clock. Another thing that concerns me is breeders who maintain mixed species groups together and when they get pups that look like leos they insists that is what they are. Again- it only takes one of these individuals to muddy the whole group over time.
Now- overall I'm extremely impressed with this group. Many of you are extremely dedicated and I think if you really want to you could work together to maintain the 'ray hobby' for the long term. There are already computer programs in existance that track and manage captive populations that for the most part are shareware. There is no reason that you could not do what zoos and aquariums try to do when they attempt to manage species over the long term, but you would have to work together and some of you would have to step forward and lead the charge. It would probably be hard work, but quite an accomplishment if as a community you decide that is where you want to head.
The potential problem is greater than this when you throw the hybrid issue into the mix. First of all- while right now hybrids appear to be healthy and reproductively viable, perhaps as much as non-hybrids, this may not always be the case. Again, we don't yet know enough about where rays are on the path of evolution. They may be just starting down that road and still have very similiar genes, but then again they may not. Hybrid genes are probably not going to match up as well as for non-hybrids. You might not see the effect of this in the short term, but 5, 10, 20 generations down the line I would be very suprised if there is not a drop in reproductive ability. For 'designer rays' maybe this does not matter- you go back to the origional species and follow the same recipe to create the same animal again. The scary thing is what about hybrids that sneak into what you are trying to maintain as non-hybrids? Every time I see someone post a picture and ask the group if they think the animal is a hybrid or not it concerns me, especially when someone responds that it is definetly a true leo or true henlei or whatever. You absolutely cannot know for certian based on a picture. If you do not know for certain, and your goal is to maintain a species you must assume that it is a hybrid. It only takes one of these individuals sneaking into your population to potentially 'hybridize' the entire lot! Once these genes get mixed into the population it will be very difficult if not impossible to turn back the clock. Another thing that concerns me is breeders who maintain mixed species groups together and when they get pups that look like leos they insists that is what they are. Again- it only takes one of these individuals to muddy the whole group over time.
Now- overall I'm extremely impressed with this group. Many of you are extremely dedicated and I think if you really want to you could work together to maintain the 'ray hobby' for the long term. There are already computer programs in existance that track and manage captive populations that for the most part are shareware. There is no reason that you could not do what zoos and aquariums try to do when they attempt to manage species over the long term, but you would have to work together and some of you would have to step forward and lead the charge. It would probably be hard work, but quite an accomplishment if as a community you decide that is where you want to head.
The subject about hybrid's and breeding pure breeds.Was spoken about at the fw ray symposium at Chicago back in august. The problem is most of the species id is in question because of there Biology there seems to be more morph or sub species then known about in the past. That coupled with the fact that there is not a dna/blood Id test that works to help figure it out.....so it is almost impossable to id blood lines at this point.
But there is good news AZA is working to trace back husbandry from past display Rays but its hard work because they are going through notes and records from years past to sort it out. I know several people is spearheading that effort at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago.They also are chipping the rays that they have to build up history on there rays. Also Frank a well known commercial ray breeder is doing the same.
IMO I think the more captive rays are researched and learned about the better the husbandry will be. It is my full intent for my company to provide as much research into the subject. This is my Company's mission statement
The primary purpose of Dark Rivers Hatchery LLP will be the importation of exotic aquatic creatures with the emphasis being on freshwater stingrays from South America and Asia. These stingray's will be used for the purpose of live biological studies designed to enhance natural procreation of the species in a captive state. Successful pups will then be sold to aquatic retail stores, public aquariums, zoos, and individual enthusiasts. Proceeds will be used to further biological studies and conservation of the species in its natural environments.
for more info please contact me.
Jason Cooley
CEO/OWNER
Dark Rivers Hatchery LLP
Harpers Ferry,WV
darkrivershatchery@yahoo.com
But there is good news AZA is working to trace back husbandry from past display Rays but its hard work because they are going through notes and records from years past to sort it out. I know several people is spearheading that effort at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago.They also are chipping the rays that they have to build up history on there rays. Also Frank a well known commercial ray breeder is doing the same.
IMO I think the more captive rays are researched and learned about the better the husbandry will be. It is my full intent for my company to provide as much research into the subject. This is my Company's mission statement
The primary purpose of Dark Rivers Hatchery LLP will be the importation of exotic aquatic creatures with the emphasis being on freshwater stingrays from South America and Asia. These stingray's will be used for the purpose of live biological studies designed to enhance natural procreation of the species in a captive state. Successful pups will then be sold to aquatic retail stores, public aquariums, zoos, and individual enthusiasts. Proceeds will be used to further biological studies and conservation of the species in its natural environments.
for more info please contact me.
Jason Cooley
CEO/OWNER
Dark Rivers Hatchery LLP
Harpers Ferry,WV
darkrivershatchery@yahoo.com
this follows what im thinking.. once select f2 and f3 pups are bred i see there value going through the roof and pure bloods prices droping...
I am breeding discus for 21 years, and along this period. I am trying to improve the line by introduce selected fish into the gene. for example, we have Leopard Snake Skin as a cross of Snake skin (mutant discovered) with red spotted green (wild form or F2 or F3). Many things to consider in order to produce better generation. example, body profile, color brightness, number of spot, size, finage.... etc. Breeder need to put a lot of effort in order to maintain a linage, not even talking about improving the existing strain. for maintaining this line, i have some red spotted green that i continue introduce into the Leopard snake skin. There is many strain of discus available now. and proven to be nicer then the wild form. but breeder still use wild form in order to improve the overall appearance of the most of the strain.
this can be done also with ray, for example, a Leoporldi x henlei, you will get some extra ordinary spotted black/gray ray. but if the breeder select some good specimen and cross it back to leo again, then the followin generation will definitely look better and more black at the same time with more attractive spot. a inteligent breeder will never just simply cross without considering the expected outcome. and will not do inbreeding for mroe than 1 generation for sure, if we are going to cross breed any hybrid fish, we will keep at least 2 linage. for example, leo x henlei = leo hen F1, this len henlei F1 can cross between the same type of hybrid and may be able to get some extra ordinary appearance of pure line throw back. some will do inbreed, but i think if we have 2 line, it will be better to cross between 2 different linage of the same hybird. this will ensure the following generation will be healthy and do not getting smaller and smaller in size.
However i would like to correct it, not only asian doing hybrid, it happen also everywhere......... just because the number of hobbyist in asia is so many compare to elsewhere, so changes of hybrid is higher in this case. Many breeders are doing pure blood line as well. ;-)
this can be done also with ray, for example, a Leoporldi x henlei, you will get some extra ordinary spotted black/gray ray. but if the breeder select some good specimen and cross it back to leo again, then the followin generation will definitely look better and more black at the same time with more attractive spot. a inteligent breeder will never just simply cross without considering the expected outcome. and will not do inbreeding for mroe than 1 generation for sure, if we are going to cross breed any hybrid fish, we will keep at least 2 linage. for example, leo x henlei = leo hen F1, this len henlei F1 can cross between the same type of hybrid and may be able to get some extra ordinary appearance of pure line throw back. some will do inbreed, but i think if we have 2 line, it will be better to cross between 2 different linage of the same hybird. this will ensure the following generation will be healthy and do not getting smaller and smaller in size.
However i would like to correct it, not only asian doing hybrid, it happen also everywhere......... just because the number of hobbyist in asia is so many compare to elsewhere, so changes of hybrid is higher in this case. Many breeders are doing pure blood line as well. ;-)
I think that eventually "The Asian Market" will start breeding them for size until they come up with Hybrids that are small enough to live comfortably in lets say a 50gal. This would really increase their market and seems like a logical place for hybridizing to go. Just think of a 50gal with 4 or 5 Tiny Rays with thousands of tiny spots swimming around looking for food. I think it's just a matter of time until a dwarf variant is basically invented, and then it's all downhill from there.
