Efficient monster filtration Design Discussion

[cvermeulen]

i dont believe any pump can pump 2200gph on 10 watts....maybe its me but the laws of physics say to accelerate the water even at zero head takes energy


you need alot of filtration for a 1000 with monsters.......i would think a minimum of 5000 gph.

based on my experience i would run the water to a pump through a bead filter to a bio tower and return to the tank using the water to creat currents in the tank.

better pumps eg march for higher heads or maybe sequence can be tailored to the job at hand...........you never get something ( energy wise) for free....but you do want to run as efficent as possible.


2 cents maybe 3

Definitely 3

I'm not sure how the Koralia pumps are rated - there may be a large fudge factor there, but doubt their fudge factor is 10 or 15 times. 10 watts is actually a fair bit of energy. If the system was 100% efficient, 10 watts could elevate 1 liter per second (3600liters per hour) a head of 1m. Pumps are not even close to 100% efficient, not even the uber low energy koralias, but it does illustrate the point.

5000gph would be easy to obtain with a system like this. Even if the powerheads are fudged by 100% (they only pump half what's advertized), running 4 koralia 8's (2 on each end, as dr. Joe suggests) would give you 6500gph.

See a bead filter would be awesome from an operational point of view... but the whole idea of forcing the water through a tightly packed mass of mechanical media is a huge energy cost.

You're right, you definitely don't get something for free, ever, but figureing 110 watts to move 800gph through 2m of head (quietone 5) is something like 15% efficient.

 

[nfored]

Ok tell me what you think about my idea of a improved UGF.

A false floor with very small holes the bottom would have 5 sections.

Outer sections on both sides holds a 3000GPH power head.
Inner sections on bother sides is two walls. the first wall is solid only connected to a power head via a bulkhead the second has lots of holes.
The Middle section is full of biomedia.

I figure with 6000GPH and small holes the flow would flow out evenly.

 

[cvermeulen]

Ok tell me what you think about my idea of a improved UGF.

A false floor with very small holes the bottom would have 5 sections.

Outer sections on both sides holds a 3000GPH power head.
Inner sections on bother sides is two walls. the first wall is solid only connected to a power head via a bulkhead the second has lots of holes.
The Middle section is full of biomedia.

I figure with 6000GPH and small holes the flow would flow out evenly.

Looks like it would work nicely. I would move the mechanical to before the pumps though and make it serviceable - over time your mechanical media would plug and you'd have a heck of a job getting at it. I dunno if you'd need the bio media actually. You could put the filter plates 1/2" fromt eh bottom, just enough to allow flow, and then your gravel provides the surface area for your BB. Then when you do gravel vacs periodically the sludge (dead BB) gets cleaned out.

 

[fishdance]

It sounds like you are talking about an internal side drop filter which can be wet/dry or submerged. These can be put in a corner, across the back or down one side. There are lots of variations on this if you look around including air lifts and can take water off the bottom or surface. For example - on a 12 x 2 x 2 foot tank I have a side drop wet/dry which takes up 20cm from one end and filters this tank efficiently.

As already mentioned, an overhead filter is also a good option, easy to access and easy to hide.

Another thing only casually mentioned is the flow through the filter does not need to be as high as everyone seems to think. Turning the tank volume over internally with an economical powerhead or air stones will keep detritus in suspension just as effectively and allows much lower flow through filters. This will save you quite a lot in setup and running costs.

 

[cvermeulen]

Another thing only casually mentioned is the flow through the filter does not need to be as high as everyone seems to think. Turning the tank volume over internally with an economical powerhead or air stones will keep detritus in suspension just as effectively and allows much lower flow through filters. This will save you quite a lot in setup and running costs.

I tend to agree, but I'm not an expert on the turnover vs efficiency issue. I think you want lots of turnover if you have lots of stock to quickly deal with ammonia spikes, but unless you have rays or something, I don't see the need to turn the tank over every 5 minutes. My fish seem to be doing better, if anything since my turnover rate dropped from somewhere around 15x to 4-5.

 

[johnptc]

i think any head will bring a fan pump to a halt.......i believe the back pressure of flowing thru media will raise the water level and hence create some small head reducing the flow to near zero..........


as for turn over..........you will need enough to keep the water clear....big fish generate a alot of waste.





,

 

[cvermeulen]

i think any head will bring a fan pump to a halt.......i believe the back pressure of flowing thru media will raise the water level and hence create some small head reducing the flow to near zero..........

I don't disagree, that's why I said the media would have to be carefully selected and placed to avoid back pressure issues. Maybe this particular issue is the Achilles heel here, I dunno. I guess if it turned into a problem it would be pretty easy to re-jig with a more robust pump.

On the other hand, The guy who built his monster ray tank from 3 large cargo containers was using an air lift to move water through the filters, which I dare say can't be much more able to cope with any head. Problem is air lifts aren't efficient either, because you have the compounding efficiency of the compressor, air line, energy lost as the air expands out your bubbler, and whatever the efficiency of the actual lift is.

 

[johnptc]

I don't disagree, that's why I said the media would have to be carefully selected and placed to avoid back pressure issues. Maybe this particular issue is the Achilles heel here, I dunno. I guess if it turned into a problem it would be pretty easy to re-jig with a more robust pump.

On the other hand, The guy who built his monster ray tank from 3 large cargo containers was using an air lift to move water through the filters, which I dare say can't be much more able to cope with any head. Problem is air lifts aren't efficient either, because you have the compounding efficiency of the compressor, air line, energy lost as the air expands out your bubbler, and whatever the efficiency of the actual lift is.

bio media would be no sweat.......... its the mechanical media that will be tough.......

 

[cvermeulen]

bio media would be no sweat.......... its the mechanical media that will be tough.......

I agree. Polishing would be near impossible, but with a multi stage filter with a large cross sectional area, it ought to be possible to achieve adequate particle entrapment. One could also run an FX5 or something on the rig doing straight mech. And/or a larger mechanical filter that only gets fired up at feeding time.

 

[bigbaddad]

Thank you johnptc, , cvermeulen is comparing apples to oranges or in this case power heads to pumps. koralia magnum 6 powerhead is for tank circulation and and may drop to nothing with restrictions (ie filtration media).

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~action~view~idProduct~RB3121~idCategory~FIWPSBTO~category~Over_1000_GPH-Submersible-Water_Pumps-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~.html


The "Quiet One 5000

• Application: Wet / Dry
• Flow Rate: 1330 gph
• Inlet / Outlet: 1" MPT x 1" MPT
• Dimensions: 6.25" x 4.25" x 5.25"
• Max Head: 10.8 ft
• Power Consumption: 110W"

This is a true pump.

*****

"Another problem with below-tank filtration is that you basically waste all the energy of the water falling from the overflow level to the sump level. That energy turns into noise and heat in the sump, and your pump has to add energy back into the system to force the water back up to tank level. Canisters are better with this, as some of the descending water energy is used to assist the pump, so most of the pump's job is just fighting the water drag in the plumbing, and forcing the water through the media."

There is a general misunderstanding of filtration here. Sumps, canisters and W/D's all perform similarly pushing or pulling water and I'm trying to figure out where the heat is generated at/from. I'm sure more would use them if they generated heat since it would save even more money.

And if we could get some clarification on how circulation occurs during a power failure. Convection flow in this small of a space would be very limited if at all.

Enlarging and placing one at each end of a 1000g tank with either better pumps or a secondary mechanical filtration systems and some intermediate circulation for the center and you could have a hit.

Keep the aeration under the bio-mass for better oxygenation. Use Lime wood air stones as they make finer bubbles.

Dr Joe

.

This quit one 500 is the biggest piece of junk that i have found on the market and would never ever purchase one again price heavy durability junk after one month the motor died after that expierience i purchased a cheap jebco 750 gph and it is still running strong.