Festae- Quality VS Trash!!

[peathenster]

Assuming:

- Fish A has bright colors but regular shape, and fish B has a tall body profile but dull color.
- Some of the progenies from a AxB cross have bright colors AND tall body profile (could happen in the first generation, or it might take two generations to see this combination).

How would you propagate this line to preserve bright color + taller body profile (i.e. what do you cross these fish to)?

This has to do with how deleterious alleles can be fixed by piggybacking on beneficial alleles when there's a strong selection pressure, but I want to know a little more about your plan before commenting on it.

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

No offense, but you can be hard to follow...

It's simple: weird looking festae come from: 1) bad genes (deformities) 2) being raised in sub-par conditions (not genetic) or 3) both.

I hadn't considered the issue of deformities coming from breeding across varients but that's possible, too.

Festaes are the "hot" fish of the moment. People aren't culling enough (whether from bad genetics or conditions). Or selling before deformities are apparent.

Without provenance to the wild, it's simply not possible to know that lines of fish are "totally unrelated" or whether fish are actually from one varient or another. In a lot of fish (e.g. Yellow Head La Ceiba's) all of the fish in the hobby go back to a couple of pairs brought back by a couple of guys. New people selling them doesn't guarantee anything (even if they tell you the fish are wild or F1).

I think you're using the term "clean genes" to mean "like a wild fish"...but wild fish can have genetic anomolies. The main thing is not breeding fish with deformities or other aberrations from the norm. Even if you're breeding siblings. And not breeding lines in which deformities appear down the line (perhaps from recessive genes).

Matt

I'm sorry about being hard to follow. And I agree with this reply 100% there is always that chance of deformities. I'm hoping that more people will pay a lil closer attention and when they do see them to please not pass them around.

And to your second response, again i am aware of the possibilities. But then again they are still blue umbees. Imo no different than breeding dovii from different locations which have been done with not many issues.

Peathenster- again you make a valid point and I am aware that there could be deformities in that project but I think it will be broken down to percentages, some being possibly deformed, some looking like dad, some looking like mom, and hopefully some looking like both. But I am willing to find out and wont be passing any deformities if there are any

 

[Calihawk]

If at anytime anyone starts to feel heated, confused, or angry, take a second and...

...refer to this thread, page 4, post #34....................remember your Bestest Friend Ever!

 

[peathenster]

Peathenster- again you make a valid point and I am aware that there could be deformities in that project but I think it will be broken down to percentages, some being possibly deformed, some looking like dad, some looking like mom, and hopefully some looking like both. But I am willing to find out and wont be passing any deformities if there are any

Line breeding is not necessarily a bad thing. It takes years of work to do this properly - retaining the desirable traits and eliminating the undesirable ones. Think of it from the perspective of crop breeding (not talking about GMOs) - decades of careful planning and hard work to bring traits like disease resistance, yield, cold resistance, drought resistance etc etc from many land races together.

I personally like wild fish with imperfections (at least you can remember them by, lol), but I'm not against line breeding as long as it's done carefully (hybrids is another story). Unfortunately, as many have pointed out in this thread, most breeding projects are short-term in nature and driven by commercial interests. In this regard, I do see a lot of value to bring up this topic. Perhaps some people were turned off by the use of the word "trash" to refer to living things. On the other hand, if this thread serves its purpose, perhaps there wouldn't be as many deformed fish out there in the future.

 

[RD.]

The odd-looking ones that RD posted could just have likely become that way (weird mouth, compressed looking) from being raised in poor conditions (too small a tank, high nitrate, etc.) than for genetic reasons.

Possibly, except the pair that I posted pics of also threw some fry that had the same deformed mouths.




Jason, just going off of your definitions .....

Trash- are festae with mouths that slope downward, over developed hump on their back, lack of bars, long sloping faces. and thats just a few that come to mind not to mention any birth defects or deformities.

Quality- are festae with strong mouths which are for eating snails, shrimp etc, high body profile with mass not sunken stomachs, stong solid bars, Nice head profiles, in turn spawn quality fry, not this stuff that dies off before 3"

First off, sometimes photos can be a bit deceiving, but even going off of just those photos those fish appear to my tired old eyes as having a high profile with mass, not an overdeveloped hump on their back. Perhaps if I handled a few hundred wild juvenile festae at 2-3" I could be a better judge - but who here has done that? You Jason? I'm just wondering as to what you are basing all of these "quality" characteristics on? If not first hand experience with wild juvenile fish, then what?

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

Possibly, except the pair that I posted pics of also threw some fry that had the same deformed mouths.




Jason, just going off of your definitions .....




First off, sometimes photos can be a bit deceiving, but even going off of just those photos those fish appear to my tired old eyes as having a high profile with mass, not an overdeveloped hump on their back. Perhaps if I handled a few hundred wild juvenile festae at 2-3" I could be a better judge - but who here has done that? You Jason? I'm just wondering as to what you are basing all of these "quality" characteristics on? If not first hand experience with wild juvenile fish, then what?

Yes picture can be deceiving and they intact deceived me. But as soon as I opened the box and put them in the tank, it was. Very obvious that it wasn't normal. Because yeah when I saw the pics I thought nice profile as well. I'm not tryin to have a pissin contest here with what i have seen versus what i havent and discussing word play on my definitions. I'm simply stating that Ive seen and received deformities and now that I'm more aware of them I know what is healthy along with what i personally like.

Yes, ill apologize about the title as sometimes I can lack tact! Lol. Maybe it would better if i said, Festae- quality vs. Deformity??? But now tell me, when fish are being purchased. Are they purchased because of the quality or deformity? Everyone wants quality and some like bragging rights. But either way, if you paid for something, you expect to get your moneys worth. And yes there is nothin stopping anyone to not buy that 300$ fish and find one for 10$ that may look just as good to that indivudual. But quality is quality!! And at least you know what your getting. You might not be sure about the 10$ fish. And yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so for that they are entitled to their own opinion.

 

[cacichlids]

Apparently people interpret things differently. Maybe some need to read and re-read what I posted. So ill explain again. Yes maybe I could have worded my title a lil differently so it doesn't sound so subjective. But it is what it is now. My main concern has nothing to do with personal preference to how one would think a fish should look. Those traits mentioned were just examples. I could care less about F numbers and that has nothing to do with what im talking about!! What I'm am trying to get at was deformities that are being spread and bred. Cause really the only concern with f numbers would be if the fish are continually bred to same bloodlines, then I would be interested in how far down it goes. If a wild pair spawns and you take f1 fry amd spawn with other f1 fry from completely unrelated fish, they're still clean genes. You can continue this for as long as you like and no matter how far the number goes, as long as what your breeding is unrelated then they are still clean and imo no different than anything from the wild.

Before I knew better I would comment on someones festae saying it looks good or whatever. Which is what rd is referencing. But now I know better and if I don't care for something ill keep my mouth shut. Maybe take another look at those fish cacichlid posted and you will see that they do in fact have humps on tgeur backs, some worse than others. The pic RD posted was the worse one out of yhe group. Cacichlid and i have already discussed this privately. And now I'm speaking up about these festae floating around that I'm seeing. People are always just trying to be polite or sugar coat everything and say, oh your fish is real sweet, or its the best I've seen. And I'm sure this is the same with other fish but right now I'm only talking abput festae. So either people know the difference in what the deformities look like and how a healthy fish is supposed to look like and aren't sayin anything or people just don't know.

Peathenster- there is nothin wrong with duanes festae in tbe pic. In fact your theory may be correct and it is all relative to adaptation to its location. I'm sure his and blessones came from different locations.

And for those of you that stated that the selective breeding maybe the cause to these dedormities... just like what I'm doing with my umbees goes to tell me that you don't know what your talking about and have never done this yourself. Everything will have the potential to carry genes with deformities but tell me how reguardless of the selective breeding if you use unrelated fish how its worse than any other breeding. If i really must, ill post pics of the festae i have now which were all selectively bred and you tell me they're deformed LOL!!!

I wouldn't say it's people interpreting things differently so much as you not being able to convey your ideas properly, if you know what I mean. In the last 6 pages I've spotted at least a couple of completely diverging lines of thought trying to be passed on as exactly the same thing, and it's confusing.

What is really happening here, and I'll have to say it because no one else has the nerve to do so, is that you are marketing your "perfect" Festae to the public and making sure we all know most of the competition is trash, which is not necessarily a lie but it does smell fishy when you start using quotes from Cichlids for Dummies to tie it all up.

Yes, there is inbreeding, beaked mouths, humpbacks, washed out colors, short bodies, four-eyed monsters and whatnot for every species we breed, every single one including Festae, this is nothing new, in fact it's probably older than both of us. As I'm sure it's been said before, this is what inevitably happens every time a species becomes the "hot fish" of the moment. The awareness is there, but the irresponsible breeders looking for a quick buck are also there, and they are a hell of a lot more persuasive, this thread won't fix that. *moving on*

 

[BlesOne]

^^ it did say feelings were gonna get hurt :/

 

[Freshwaterpredators]

I wouldn't say it's people interpreting things differently so much as you not being able to convey your ideas properly, if you know what I mean. In the last 6 pages I've spotted at least a couple of completely diverging lines of thought trying to be passed on as exactly the same thing, and it's confusing.

What is really happening here, and I'll have to say it because no one else has the nerve to do so, is that you are marketing your "perfect" Festae to the public and making sure we all know most of the competition is trash, which is not necessarily a lie but it does smell fishy when you start using quotes from Cichlids for Dummies to tie it all up.

Yes, there is inbreeding, beaked mouths, humpbacks, washed out colors, short bodies, four-eyed monsters and whatnot for every species we breed, every single one including Festae, this is nothing new, in fact it's probably older than both of us. As I'm sure it's been said before, this is what inevitably happens every time a species becomes the "hot fish" of the moment. The awareness is there, but the irresponsible breeders looking for a quick buck are also there, and they are a hell of a lot more persuasive, this thread won't fix that. *moving on*

LOL yeah I gues your right blesone this guys feelings got hurt obviously!!! Cause mine are not. And how many times do i have to say this has nothing to do with my festae!!!?? It's only because I do have them and did post this thread do you think im trying to market my fish Lol. But you sir are incorrect! I honestly dont care if i sell any more of my festae because I didn't buy them for that purpose. These pairs will remain with me for a very long time, spawning or not. And yeah I will call it how i see it!! Quotes from my cichlids from dummies?? Now thats funny. I have learned a lot from other people over the years along with my own experiences. But i havent quoted anything and if i have prove it!!! You want to start talking about people quoting cichlids for dummies then maybe you should look to your left and right to those who are and then take your own advise. You can try to get under my skin all you want, but you dont have anything on me. So exactly, moving on....

 

[Gatorxxx420]

Yes picture can be deceiving and they intact deceived me. But as soon as I opened the box and put them in the tank, it was. Very obvious that it wasn't normal. Because yeah when I saw the pics I thought nice profile as well. I'm not tryin to have a pissin contest here with what i have seen versus what i havent and discussing word play on my definitions. I'm simply stating that Ive seen and received deformities and now that I'm more aware of them I know what is healthy along with what i personally like.

Yes, ill apologize about the title as sometimes I can lack tact! Lol. Maybe it would better if i said, Festae- quality vs. Deformity??? But now tell me, when fish are being purchased. Are they purchased because of the quality or deformity? Everyone wants quality and some like bragging rights. But either way, if you paid for something, you expect to get your moneys worth. And yes there is nothin stopping anyone to not buy that 300$ fish and find one for 10$ that may look just as good to that indivudual. But quality is quality!! And at least you know what your getting. You might not be sure about the 10$ fish. And yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so for that they are entitled to their own opinion.

Your lack of tact projects you as an a-hole. You and I have had bad dealings in the past (I won't mention them) and it left a bitter taste in my mouth about you. What you're trying to do with these Umbee are exactly what a lot people out for a buck are trying to do. Instead of enjoying the fish in it's natural look, each fish of the same species from a different locale looks different because it had to evolve and adapt to it's surroundings to survive. While they're both blue Umbee, the results of crossing them could very well turn around to backfire on you and produce a perfect split of some looking like mom and some looking like dad every time. An example, I wanted a unique fish in my tank that when people saw it, they asked about it. So I let my Cutteri and Convicts spawn... guess what? It didn't work that way. While at times they show bars of the Convicts and show the orange female Convicts have. most of the time they look like Cutteri.

I wouldn't say it's people interpreting things differently so much as you not being able to convey your ideas properly, if you know what I mean. In the last 6 pages I've spotted at least a couple of completely diverging lines of thought trying to be passed on as exactly the same thing, and it's confusing.

What is really happening here, and I'll have to say it because no one else has the nerve to do so, is that you are marketing your "perfect" Festae to the public and making sure we all know most of the competition is trash, which is not necessarily a lie but it does smell fishy when you start using quotes from Cichlids for Dummies to tie it all up.

Yes, there is inbreeding, beaked mouths, humpbacks, washed out colors, short bodies, four-eyed monsters and whatnot for every species we breed, every single one including Festae, this is nothing new, in fact it's probably older than both of us. As I'm sure it's been said before, this is what inevitably happens every time a species becomes the "hot fish" of the moment. The awareness is there, but the irresponsible breeders looking for a quick buck are also there, and they are a hell of a lot more persuasive, this thread won't fix that. *moving on*

I agree with the statement in bold here. Jason, you come off as an arrogant know it all when you post things like this thread. If someone buys another of your fish (regardless of how beautiful and healthy they are) for your ridiculous prices, well they're just foolish. Because let's not forget you bragging about selling your Festae for so much an inch and once they're sexed the prices would go up depending on male or female. I do respect the fact you're trying to get some better quality fish out in the hobby, but your attitude about it is a turn off. I'd never buy fish from you for many reasons, biggest being you live in Alaska and I'm in Detroit. Shipping would cost me 3 times what the fish are worth. While in most cases it is true (there is always a diamond in the rough in everything) that you get what you pay for... It's not always true in the fish keeping world. If you're patient, ask around and more importantly look around... you'd be amazed at what you can find in LFS and chain stores.

Example, I wanted Jack Dempsey's when I first started keeping Cichlids because I liked the way they looked and still do. Problem was, a lot of places had poor selection. I happened to go in the biggest hole in the wall LFS in my area and found some of the nicest I'd seen. So I took a chance and got them... 6 for 12 dollars. They were all an inch or two in size and had great potential. I'm pretty sure everyone on here has seen them, they turned out to be some of the best looking I've seen. Did I get lucky? Sure. Sometimes you win and sometimes you get burned.