Fish Food Analysis

[kmuda]

kmuda is a hobbyist who started up his own oscar forum a few years back. I believe that his intentions were honorable and that he meant well, but unfortunately much of what he has posted in his fish food reviews in a factual manner, is anything but.

This is twice you've blasted me pertaining to my reviews of fish foods and the leading article that explains it. If there is anything you find nonfactual feel free to clarify and it will be corrected. I have no agenda other than a desire to see improvements in what is made available to the consumer.

As for "10 year old" formulas, please ask Pablo to update his ingredient list with the vendors of his products. The last time you made this statement I double checked my ingredient lists against what was listed on Drs. Foster and Smith web site and they still matched. I just now compared the ingredient list of "New Life Spectrum Cichlid Formula Sinking Pellets" and "New Life Spectrum Grow Sinking Pellets" between what is listed on my site and the Drs. Site and they still match. If you care to provide me with updated ingredient list I will update the articles on my site. The last time you made this statement I sent an email to NLS requesting updated ingredient lists and like every email I've ever sent to NLS, I received no reply.

Yes, I am a hobbyist. I never claimed to be anything but a hobbyist. That's why the leading "Fish Food Ingredients Analysis" article, as the second paragraph in the article, clearly states.

As a disclaimer, I am not a scientist, a biologist, a chemist, or a dietitian. What I am is a hobbyist, an aquarium enthusiast with almost 30 years experience with the goal of allowing the fish in my care to live out their life expectancy free of aggression, disease, and environmental or dietary induced ailments.

Hundreds of hours of research went into this article, with several hundred more hours going into the authoring. It's not something arbitrarily thrown together regurgitating crap from my anal cavity. I stand behind andwill justify every statement made. They are made for a reason. If something is inaccurate, I will gladly correct it.

No where on my site do I claim Hikari makes their own fish meal. That reference was corrected 3 years ago in the single (almost decade old) article it was in. Yes, I have confidence in Fish Meals provided in Hikari foods. Why? Because they have been forthcoming with information about how their quality control works, about their requirements. Much more forthcoming than any company I've dealt with. Even then, I don't rank any Hikari foods higher than a 5 star food because they don't utilize the whole animal. Something clearly stated in each review. I also clearly identify that use of the whole animal is greatly preferred. I go into some detail to this effect in the leading "Fish Food Ingredient Analysis" article. That said, not all fish meals are "bad", per say. Some fish meals that do not contain the whole animal are acceptable. Not preferred, but acceptable.

In the reviews, I penalize foods for use of what I consider controversial ingredients, with those controversial ingredients being Ehtoxyquin, BHA, BHT, Synthetic Vitamin K, and Artificial Coloring Agents. This, I believe, is what get's your goat so much. Because I don't rank NLS higher. I guess it's not fair enough to you that I state very clearly, in each of these instances.

The high quality of preferred ingredients in this food would easily justify rating this as a 6 star food. However, the potential use of Ethoxyquin prevents rating it above a 4 star food. A shame as this is perhaps the best list of ingredients and preferred proteins available. The combination of high quality whole animal protein and preferred plant products, as a natural source of vitamins and minerals, would otherwise rank this food as premium. It seems an injustice to rate this as a 4 star food but until the Ethoxyquin question is answered, it cannot be rated higher.

Which should allow the reader to make their own call. If they don't mind Ethoxyquin, it's a 6 star food. However, if they, like me, would prefer a food that does not contain ethoxyquin, they can keep looking. Those foods do exist.

Again, the intent of the leading article and the associated reviews was to fill a void in that this information does not exist for fish food. I attempted to accumulate it.... and I continue to attempt to accumulate it. Are there people more qualified to author such an article? Absolutely. Please have them do so. In addition, anyone reading the article (or articles) is more than free to point out errors or inaccuracies. I will correct them. If you care to author an article that is contradictory to my statements, please do. Send it to me and I will publish it right next to mine.

For the record, Oscarfish.Com has been in continual existence since 1999. I'd say that would entail more than "a few years ago".

 

[RD.]

Trust me, my previous comment wasn't a 'blast' in any way shape or form. lol

I am not here to appease anyone, no matter what they feed their fish. And I also could care less what star rating you give to NLS, or any other product as your qualifications in this field are zero. You DO in fact guess at much of what you publish on your website, which is also ok, just as it is ok for me to point that out when those who are less knowledgeable regarding this subject post links to your website and your personal reviews.

It's also not my job to ask Pablo to update anything, anymore than it is his job to regulate how each & every vendor world-wide markets his products. The bottom line is your lists are old & outdated.

 

[administrator]

Speaking of fish food analysis. Has anyone done a review on "Almost Natural Tropical Fish Food" by Ed. Thanks.

 

[DMD123]

Speaking of fish food analysis. Has anyone done a review on "Almost Natural Tropical Fish Food" by Ed. Thanks.

The lack of ingredients make me worry. What is used as a binding agent? At first glance it appears to be only the best of the best but at least the guy uses the word 'Almost' in there. LOL

I dont know why but it reminds me of the bulk stuff you can buy from Kens....

 

[spiff44]

Hey! Since we're on topic and have some knowledgeable people participating, can someone list some good examples of home made recipes?

Do any of you guys make your own feed? I would be really interested in some recipes. Especially if its commonly available stuff from grocery store and doesn't need to be frozen. But frozen okay too.

Has anyone tried to see how fish respond to only fresh (or frozen) foods?

I have slowly increased the amount of pulverized frozen spinach that I put in the tank as just about everything likes to eat it. Can this be a new staple in lieu of flake and pellet?

I wouldn't mind eventually doing away with all store bought foods. A mixed community tank should be able to thrive off of a daily mix of fresh vegetable, fruits and meats, right?

 

[kmuda]

If the list are old and outdated, it's because the information available to me is old and outdated..... and I have not managed to get NLS to provide updated information even though I've tried. I agree, it's certainly not your job. Nor should someone in my position have to go through great lengths to get the information.

The ingredient lists being provided by the manufacturer web sites is the first place I check. In the absence of ingredient lists published on their web sites, the primary online vendors is what I go by and what I will continue to go by. If changes in formulas are import to the manufacturer, they should inform the primary online vendors to update them. There's a limited number online vendors most of us use. It should not be that difficult. NLS does not provide ingredient lists on their web site so I am forced to use the information that is available. Manufacturers should at least make the effort, if it's important. If it's not that important, get off my @ss about providing the same information published everywhere else.... like I'm supposed to somehow be more current than anyone when even the manufacturer does not provide the information... which is likely why the information is outdated on the primary vendor web sites.

My qualifications in this field are exactly what I claim them to be. A hobbyist. Someone who has spent a significant amount of time trying to learn and interpret what the industry, in large part, does not want learned and interpreted. Almost exclusively, with a couple of exceptions, they want the consuming public to ignore the ingredient list, not to understand what the ingredient list really says..... to focus instead on the front cover that has a picture of the type of fish they own along with the propaganda about how good the food is. In fact, they depend on the ignorance of the consumer. That is what the leading articles and reviews on my site are about. An effort to get the consumer beyond the ignorance. I consider this a valuable effort to improve the hobby. Your apparent objections to my efforts are actually a bit boggling, especially considering NLS is one of the few who has something to be proud of with their ingredient list.

Do I assume Hikari Fish Meal is a quality meal. Absolutely, same way I assume Dainichi fish meal is a quality meal..... same way I assume NLS is using quality ingredients. With that assumption backed up by the results of people using the products. It's one of those things I identify in the article. All you really have to go on is the reputation of the company. I've heard you say the exact same thing.

 

[RD.]

The information is out there for anyone that wants to look hard enough. I have brought this to your attention in the past, if what you want is to educate the public then my suggestions and/or critique shouldn't cause you such angst.

Just so there is no further confusion, I am not here to be your friend, or hold your little itty bitty hand.

Unfortunately one cannot interpret what they do not understand. That is your biggest problem, your lack of understanding this entire industry. You preach about things you know absolutely nothing about, which is where the errors come into play, and the real facts go out the window.

My previous comments were 100% factual, in that Hikari does NOT produce their own fish meal, you actually state the following on your website: "Being a Hikari produced fish meal; we can have confidence in the nutrient and protein levels of the meal." .................. yet Hikari does NOT produce their own fish meal. That's not splitting hairs, produce = make to 99% of the consumers on this planet. That is nonfactual information, kmuda. Just as it is to speculate, which is all you are doing in most cases, as to which manufacturers contain any of the preservatives that you mention. You assume NLS contains ethoxyquin, and you assume Xtreme does not. Got some cold hard current data to support those assumptions? If not, then what you are writing is irresponsible, not "educational" as you seem to think.
Anyone can make stuff up as they go along via reading propaganda on the interweb.

As previously stated, I believe that your intentions were honorable and that you meant well, but unfortunately much of what you have posted in your fish food reviews in a factual manner, is anything but. You many not like that comment, but I'm just keeping things real.

Have a nice day.

 

[kmuda]

Hikari does NOT produce their own fish meal, you actually state the following on your website: "Being a Hikari produced fish meal; we can have confidence in the nutrient and protein levels of the meal." .................. yet Hikari does NOT produce their own fish meal.

You are correct. That should read "being an Hikari fish meal; we can have confidence". I will get it corrected in the articles. It's not an attempt to suggest Hikari produces their own fish meal, although it is incorrectly worded so that it would appear to suggest that. I was attempting to identify a meal product that has undergone Hikari Quality Control. Perhaps I should use the word "Inspected" instead of "Produced."

The only one guessing here is you assuming how I went about determining Ethoxyquin content of the individual foods. For me to claim a food does not contain Ethoxyquin I either found a publically published document from that manufacturer to that effect or they replied to my requests in the negative. If I was lied to... I was lied to. If you have evidence to the contrary I will take it back up with that vendor. If you simply suggest I was lied to I will take it back up with that vendor. It's as if you think because of your years with an agenda that I have one as well. I don't.

If a manufacturer did not reply in the negative, or did not reply at all, an assumption is made the food contains Ethoxyquin... or at least it is not credited with not containing Ethoxyquin, as is the case of several of the NLS Forumlas such as the H2O Stable Sinking Wafers, which is one of those products that does not list Ethoxyquin on the USA label but does list it on labels overseas.

I "assume" NLS contains Ethoxyquin because:

1. They never replied to any requests
2. They generally include Ethoxyquin on the label
3. Some products in the US did not list Ethoxyquin but the exact same products in Europe and Australia did
4. Pablo has his pro-Ethoxyquin "Ethoxyquin is harmless" article on his web site.

I consider your dismissal of the entirety of the information as irresponsible, especially considering most of it is preaching the same thing you've been preaching for years. By casually discarding everything in it's entirety based upon the few sentences you find fault with, you are informing people your own preachings are false.

Much more went into the development of these articles than "guessing". Greatly more than you are giving me credit for. Your suggestion that it's "guess work" is insulting. That is why I responded this time.

 

[RD.]

And there you go again, preaching about things you know nothing about. The NLS labels in AU, are the exact same ones used in the USA. Have you ever in recent times actually taken the time to pick up a few containers and read the labels? Oh that's right, that's not your job, everyone should stop what they are doing and hire extra people to answer all of your questions. More assumptions, regarding information gleaned second hand from some other source. If only the world was that perfect, and everyone was 100% honest in all of their dealings, and everything that they say. And yes, there are many liars in the business world, but the problem I have with your site is how many things are presented in a factual manner. Just as I just did with your Hikari fish meal comments. It's not the end of the world, I was simply pointing something out that was incorrect.

I have never once stated that the entirety of the information on your site has been posted in an irresponsible manner, or ever suggested that you had some kind of hidden agenda (as others here have in the past). In fact, I was the one person who stood up for you, and have always stated that I believed that your intentions were honorable ones, and that you meant well - just as I did earlier in this discussion.

I no longer have any type of vested interest in this area of the hobby, so when I comment I do so as a fellow hobbyist. I don't agree with a LOT of what is posted on your site with regards to nutrition, or the manner in which some of that information has been presented, such as your spin on ethoxyquin etc in the past.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?510234-What-are-you-feeding-YOUR-fish-!

It all sounds good when there's no one giving what I would consider a more responsible take on the subject.

Or this one where you started a discussion on probiotics and oscars, where again, you assumed something, that being that I had discarded probiotics, which couldn't be further from the truth.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...cs-in-fish-feed-and-Oscars-are-true-omnivores


There's actually a sticky here on MFK on that very topic, one that I authored.



It's all good kmuda, you carry on with your website, and posting your info, and I will continue to inform consumers of what I see as being factual, and not. If you find my comments insulting, I guess you can just consider the source. lol

 

[kmuda]

Yes, you stopped people when they suggested I had an agenda. I am greatful. As I am greatful as to what I've learned from you in the past. You are an excellent teacher when you are not in attack mode and obviously know your stuff. I've never questioned that. Are you more of an expert in this area than I? Absolutely. There are many experts but none have taken the time to compile an inventory of fish food ingredients, identifying what each ingredient is, and their potential benefits or harm. The information did not exist in a single easily retrievable format. Even AAFCO's descriptions are largely a joke. So I took it upon myself to learn and create it. And for the most part, the results are blasted by the companies making a fortune and applauded by the little guys trying to get their foot in the door.

The difference in labels was a reality, suggested both by online websites and subsequently confirmed by various members in the US, Europe, and Australia, and included the container on my shelf. It's entirely possible what we in the US were getting was either a newer or older batch that did not have ethoxyquin included while those overseas did. Yet another query to NLS that went unanswered.

It's called customer service. Some companies have it, some do not. I am not psychic. Questions have to be asked and answered. In each email I send I clearly state the purpose with links to the articles. Companies can choose if the information I provide is important enough for them to respond or not. Most companies do respond and many even escalate when the questions get beyond the simple.

And no sir, I am not going to get in my car and travel to every fish store in the area to check the labels on the over 100 foods I have reviewed thus far, a good many of which are not carried by stores in the area. I'm going to do what each of us do, use the Internet from the comfort of my house. When it's a food I have on my shelf, I will double check the ingredients listed on the Internet. When there is a difference, I will email the manufacturer for clarification. But no sir, manual eyes on every container of food is not a viable option

As for ethoxyquin, we will continue to differ in that respect. If you read the ethoxyquin section of the lead-in article I think you will find that I was fair in the explanations. If given the choice in a food that contains ethoxyquin or one that does not, I will choose "not" almost every time. But I don't think either one of us intends to rehash that discussion.