New to fronts.

[Stramn]

I never said I wouldn't specify. I just said that its not an technically a cross breed and wouldn't have to be specified. I being a nice guy would tell people. But do I have to with a non hybrid? Nope. Either way its doubtful any front enthusiast would purchase a sexy Red Panda Front

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[P.A.NativesBPM]

I never said I wouldn't specify. I just said that its not an technically a cross breed and wouldn't have to be specified. I being a nice guy would tell people. But do I have to with a non hybrid? Nope. Either way its doubtful any front enthusiast would purchase a sexy Red Panda Front

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It isn't a cross breed but it is still a cross. You just can't get that through your head can you?


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[Stramn]

So you are saying that if I grab a pink convict, breed it with a standard convict, from the same collection point, its still a cross?

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[P.A.NativesBPM]

So you are saying that if I grab a pink convict, breed it with a standard convict, from the same collection point, its still a cross?

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Yes. Not a species cross, but enough of a cross to be noted.
A pink con and a regular cons fry will look different from both parents, so even if you sold as pure cons people would think you were an idiot and ignore the add.


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[Stramn]

In my experience, the fry spawned in a pairing between a pink convict and a standard convict come out looking like either standard convicts or pink convicts with a very small percentage looking like "marbled" convicts. Either way, people call them convicts. Because that's what they are.

So Frontosa sp. Burundi "Red" paired with Frontosa sp. Burundi "Black Widow" will produce Frontosa sp. Burundi, with a small percentage showing one or both of the aforementioned genetic abnormalities. But they are still C. Frontosa "Burundi" its not crossbreeding its just breeding.

Crossbreeding is hybridization. I'm not creating hybrids nor suggesting the creation of a hybrid. I'm stating that creating a Frontosa of the Burundi varient that exhibits both genetic abnormalities is still a Cyphotilapia Frontosa "Burundi"
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[P.A.NativesBPM]

In my experience, the fry spawned in a pairing between a pink convict and a standard convict come out looking like either standard convicts or pink convicts with a very small percentage looking like "marbled" convicts. Either way, people call them convicts. Because that's what they are.

So Frontosa sp. Burundi "Red" paired with Frontosa sp. Burundi "Black Widow" will produce Frontosa sp. Burundi, with a small percentage showing one or both of the aforementioned genetic abnormalities. But they are still C. Frontosa "Burundi" its not crossbreeding its just breeding.

Crossbreeding is hybridization. I'm not creating hybrids nor suggesting the creation of a hybrid. I'm stating that creating a Frontosa of the Burundi varient that exhibits both genetic abnormalities is still a Cyphotilapia Frontosa "Burundi"
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You are correct it's a Burundi.

I'm just saying its not moral to sell the fry as simply Burundi as people don't know what they are getting.


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[coyotethug]

In my experience, the fry spawned in a pairing between a pink convict and a standard convict come out looking like either standard convicts or pink convicts with a very small percentage looking like "marbled" convicts. Either way, people call them convicts. Because that's what they are.

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With the convict breeding you are referring to it should go be either 50% pink and 50% normal or all normal. The calico/marbled/paradox gene you are referring to is another gene all together. If neither parent shows the trait the you could have a max of 25% if both are heterozygous for the trait. Some normals have the trait it is just harder to notice with normal coloration. I have bred and raised hundreds of batches of convicts over the years with pure lines and both traits are true recessive traits on separate chromosomes so no linkage.

I think you are missing the point of what we are trying to say. Technically you are correct in that crossing any C. frontosa with any other would not be a hybrid, nor would crossing any C. gibernosa with any other, but front people don't see it that way. Front enthusiasts, as with many African cichlid enthusiasts, are in it for the beauty of the natural form, free from artificial selection of traits and obscure color variants. Each locale has its own nuances and are beautiful and unique because of these. Anything that strays from that is not generally favored by these type of people. I personally think black widows, reds, albinos, and piebalds are all interesting because of the genetics behind them, but I am a scientist and the genetic variation intrigues me.

You can breed them and find buyers for them, but it will likely be people that also get into the hybrid south and centrals or are relatively new to the hobby. The problem is that many of those types lose interest in fronts and never let them grow to their full potential. They grow far too slowly and display behaviors that are much less boisterous on average.

That is the reason that these variations have not caught on. Those of us who are willing to grow a fish from 1 inch to 8 inches in 3 years to produce a couple dozen fry per spawn at best are too busy with the natural populations to get into the designer types. And those who buy the designer types will likely trade them in or house them with something that will beat them up and cause their early demise.

If you want to take this on as a long term project I say go for it. It is going to take at least 5 years before you have any fry that display both red and widow genes, red being a simple recessive trait. This is unless you can get ahold of adults of each type and then maybe only 3 years. Good luck.

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[Source310]

Well reds are just line bred Burundis with a genetic mutation. Why would purists not like a purebred fish?

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They are not line bred they are inbreed,
Low quality with little color pigmentation

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[coyotethug]

They are not line bred they are inbreed,
Low quality with little color pigmentation

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Line bred and inbred are exactly the same thing. Both are crossing closely related individuals. Line bred is when you are doing it in order to select for specific characteristics, inbred is typically used when negative mutations resulting in lower fitness of offspring are a result.

Every time we create a new strain of plant or animal it is initially very inbred. But we weed out the bad genes as the weak fry die off and eventually we have a fixed mutation in specimens with a relatively high fitness.

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[GreenTerror3003]

With the convict breeding you are referring to it should go be either 50% pink and 50% normal or all normal. The calico/marbled/paradox gene you are referring to is another gene all together. If neither parent shows the trait the you could have a max of 25% if both are heterozygous for the trait. Some normals have the trait it is just harder to notice with normal coloration. I have bred and raised hundreds of batches of convicts over the years with pure lines and both traits are true recessive traits on separate chromosomes so no linkage.

I think you are missing the point of what we are trying to say. Technically you are correct in that crossing any C. frontosa with any other would not be a hybrid, nor would crossing any C. gibernosa with any other, but front people don't see it that way. Front enthusiasts, as with many African cichlid enthusiasts, are in it for the beauty of the natural form, free from artificial selection of traits and obscure color variants. Each locale has its own nuances and are beautiful and unique because of these. Anything that strays from that is not generally favored by these type of people. I personally think black widows, reds, albinos, and piebalds are all interesting because of the genetics behind them, but I am a scientist and the genetic variation intrigues me.

You can breed them and find buyers for them, but it will likely be people that also get into the hybrid south and centrals or are relatively new to the hobby. The problem is that many of those types lose interest in fronts and never let them grow to their full potential. They grow far too slowly and display behaviors that are much less boisterous on average.

That is the reason that these variations have not caught on. Those of us who are willing to grow a fish from 1 inch to 8 inches in 3 years to produce a couple dozen fry per spawn at best are too busy with the natural populations to get into the designer types. And those who buy the designer types will likely trade them in or house them with something that will beat them up and cause their early demise.

If you want to take this on as a long term project I say go for it. It is going to take at least 5 years before you have any fry that display both red and widow genes, red being a simple recessive trait. This is unless you can get ahold of adults of each type and then maybe only 3 years. Good luck.

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I could not have said that any better myself. I thought your point was clear, informative, and effective. Everything I was thinking of mentioning, you already conveyed lol!


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