Rare Myanmar species

[jlnguyen74]

May I ask what do you mean by hybrid?
If we cross a red and green do we get banjar red?
Or do you really mean banjar red is a close relative of green?

Definition of "Hybrid"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid

Who know exactly what's a "Banjar Red?" You ask one person, and he'll tell you it's from southern tip of Indonesia. You ask another person, and he'll tell you it's a crossbreed (hybrid) between red and green. You ask a third person, and he'll tell you it's a crossbreed between a RTG and green. Do you really expect the farm will disclose their recipe? There's no study or proof of Banjar Red, so we only know what's circulated! Well, look at your ex-yellow tail pic. Does it look like a green? That should answer your question on whether a Banjar Red is close relative of a green. Do you know what's a mule or jack ass? Does it look like a horse to you? Does it look like a donkey to you?

for a person who never seen the real fish with yours own eyes sure talks a lot, question is what you saying is it even relevant

There's something called "common sense," but it's not common for people to use their common sense!

 

[skareb]

Definition of "Hybrid"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid

Who know exactly what's a "Banjar Red?" You ask one person, and he'll tell you it's from southern tip of Indonesia. You ask another person, and he'll tell you it's a crossbreed (hybrid) between red and green. You ask a third person, and he'll tell you it's a crossbreed between a RTG and green. Do you really expect the farm will disclose their recipe? There's no study or proof of Banjar Red, so we only know what's circulated! Well, look at your ex-yellow tail pic. Does it look like a green? That should answer your question on whether a Banjar Red is close relative of a green. Do you know what's a mule or jack ass? Does it look like a horse to you? Does it look like a donkey to you?

There's something called "common sense," but it's not common for people to use their common sense!

Recipe? may I ask you whats your stand?
Banjar red do they exist in the wild?
or it was created by farm?
You seem to be unsure what you're talking about here, whats your stand on this, since you claim its a hybrid.

 

[jlnguyen74]

Recipe? may I ask you whats your stand?
Banjar red do they exist in the wild?
or it was created by farm?
You seem to be unsure what you're talking about here, whats your stand on this, since you claim its a hybrid.

I rather talk to a wall! At least it's less annoying, since I don't have to repeat myself!

 

[skareb]

I rather talk to a wall! At least it's less annoying, since I don't have to repeat myself!

I understand its annoying when you keep slapping your own face
so can you give me a point blank answer...
Banjar red from wild or farm made?

because you seem to not know what you;re talking about

 

[jlnguyen74]

I understand its annoying when you keep slapping your own face
so can you give me a point blank answer...
Banjar red from wild or farm made?

because you seem to not know what you;re talking about

The only point blank answer I can give you is you need to take a Reading Comprehensive class! If you're working day job, take a night class! Just like you posted

So in the end god knows whats the outcome.

 

[skareb]

The only point blank answer I can give you is you need to take a Reading Comprehensive class! If you're working day job, take a night class!

you think by twisting around you can get away, you and that grand master

You open your big mouth without knowing who you're debating about arowana, and now you cant answer me? stuck your foot in your own mouth? cat got your tongue?

Be a man and answer me

Banjar red from wild or its create in farm?

which one is it????

 

[ausarow]

green arowas are native to thailand, vietnam, malaysia and mayanmar to the north.
it makes sense that the patterned fish shown in these posts is actually a throw out from the greens. that said it should not be labelled just another green as it is different and more rare and worthy of looking at breeding with to get new varieties.

as i said earlier, it would be a mutation of kind ( just like why we have so many different arows) that fitted in ok with the environment in way of making it blend well, possibly in weeds in the area.. so it could prey well and also possibly be safer from predation itself. so it survived and passed on the genes.
there are also greens that have purple coloration, these are the more rarer form and so more expensive than a normal/more usual green.
as for banjar reds? i will assume this is the same kind mentioned having a yellow tail..
these yellow tail fish became available to breeders in singapore taken from the wild.
yes the wild..outdoors...but in this i am not saying they are a naturally occuring species by way of evolution without human interaction.

the yellow tailed fish were not sourced by new import under farm license from an original native area like the reds for example came from kalimantan..but were captured locally at the time, way back in the early days of farming in singapore
you can find that information in CITES papers that make mention of what farms got what stock from where and it says yellow tails sourced from wild in singapore.
i followed this up through CITES staff and there is some confusion about them as to where these fish came from originally.the IUCN red list even notes that formosus is native to singapore?
there was a government stocking program in the early eighties where surplus stock after the breeding trials where released into some impoundments in singapore.
BUT other than the fish being present through natural means in the area there was likley some release events of other fish earlier into the singapore waterways and this could be how the yellow tail fish arose..
i am talking more like the 70s. and for all i know these could have been there for a fair while..the only way to better get a glimpse of how or where they came from is to ask the breeders and see if they actually knew the story of how they got there. for all i know they could have been there fifty years or possibly more or only five years. its all a close land mass with people moving about..
so these yellow tail fish could have come from greens, goldens or reds or possibly all three were present at the time. or even injected into the pool at any later stage.

it is rather likley that fish ( yellow tail kinds) came from these releases earlier than the stocking program in the early eighties. as to what they came from and the way they used them to bred is anyones guess but there could well have been a natural cross happening in the wild in singapore between arowanas from different regions of origins that meant for the "yellow tail" presence there.

what i dont know is if farmers are today performing the same crosses that once occured in the released areas to produce the "banjar". as in todays new banjars are just a f1 hybrid or they are on breeding the original sourced stock to produce them.
most likley that both situations are occurring actually, with some lines coming from the original stock. so the debate about whether the original ones are from a man made hybrid would rely on clearing up the situation that occured decades ago.

the more recent scientific classification is used by CITES and with such non pure breeding being done we can see why this is the case. it would just be too hard to regulate or name fish as otherwise.
more recently some scientists used the genetic marking to prove that the various colour forms within formosus had been isolated long enough to show different genes. they wanted to check the relatedness in local populations vs themselves and orowanas from other regions etc.
obvious to someone looking at a red and green and a golden to see the difference but this is the way of science.. to show that there is a difference under the skin in way of gene make up.
my guess is that as long as mayanmar had greens that the snakeskin pattern came from that and if subjected to a gene test it would show a close relationship to the green from mayanmar most specifically. they could now even look at the difference in genes that provide for the snakeskin pattern to determine this.
of course this pathway ( a mutant form of the mayanmar green) would be likely as long as other fish from other origins where not released into the areas and so found there way into the gene mix.

 

[ausarow]

i dont know if anyone sees the problems with the above questions on banjar reds
now that i have tried to explain this BUT some farmers will acknowledge a banjar red being the yellow tails and others will call it a 1.5.
this is different names given by different farmers and marketing. most likley that there are more original forms of yellow tail banjar and then there are more recent forms produced on farms using new genes and/or using the older forms.
today it is very hard to know lineage.

for my way of thinking the early banjar has a very yellow tails the 1.5 is a lower grade red that will not turn into a true red.. but then you have different farms passing out either kind and ones inbetween.

so with all the genes flying about and all the different farms and then the takes on the subject coming from the buyers ( and myself included) its no wonder theres confusion on the matter. liken it to buying a bull dog.. they arent all containing the same lineage.

 

[skareb]

i dont know if anyone sees the problems with the above questions on banjar reds
now that i have tried to explain this BUT some farmers will acknowledge a banjar red being the yellow tails and others will call it a 1.5.
this is different names given by different farmers and marketing. most likley that there are more original forms of yellow tail banjar and then there are more recent forms produced on farms using new genes and/or using the older forms.
today it is very hard to know lineage.

for my way of thinking the early banjar has a very yellow tails the 1.5 is a lower grade red that will not turn into a true red.. but then you have different farms passing out either kind and ones inbetween.

so with all the genes flying about and all the different farms and then the takes on the subject coming from the buyers ( and myself included) its no wonder theres confusion on the matter. liken it to buying a bull dog.. they arent all containing the same lineage.

I think its a very fair question, banjar red from wild or manmade?
Our 2 grand master are confuse thanks to all those names and misguiding by lfs. The origin of this species is only found in south of Kalimantan. The fish display the 3 yellow back fin. The most important fact here: this is a fish found in the wild and should not be confuse with all those mixed breed and all the names given.

The existance of this species has earn it a scientific name of its own.

Saying banjar red is a hybrid, I feel is a misconception, you need to prove that eg red X green = banjarred, in order to claim its a hybrid. The area of south of kalimantan do not have red. So banjar red comes from what mix with what?

They;re in total isolation just like all the original arowana and evolve from there to their respective sub species. Nami, MG, Red, Green, batik and so on. Saying there're close relative is fair but not hybrid.

If banjar red is hybrid then there should be a formula where eg you can breed gold x rtg x red x green and so on = banjarred. But this isnt the case here you can make a banjarred from other species.

Fail cross breeding of red and naming it 1.5 red or banjar red is only a marketing term.

As for the batik and nami and saying there're the spin off from green is a mystery until proper DNA testing are done.

All the while people thought MG are closely related to green, but I heard DNA testing recently done by malaysian scientist prove that green are very closely related to Red, whereelse MG are closely related to RTG.

Another theory to back this up heard from a forumer is the titiwangsa mountain range that split up sumatera (RTG) and east (Green) and west (Nami and MG, further up of this mountain range will be the batik) coast of peninsular malaysia. the further end which is borneo you would find banjar red, super red and banjar red.

Hence we're not sure about batik and nami is from green or entirely on their own, from studies of the fish development I personally find it is way way different from green in terms of lustre, shine, pigmentation progress.

Hopefully proper DNA studies will be done for this 2 new species.

ausarow: thanks for sharing, but you really spoiled my fun with the 2 master.

 

[jlnguyen74]

The origin of this species is only found in south of Kalimantan. The fish display the 3 yellow back fin. The most important fact here: this is a fish found in the wild and should not be confuse with all those mixed breed and all the names given.

The existance of this species has earn it a scientific name of its own.

Saying banjar red is a hybrid, I feel is a misconception, you need to prove that eg red X green = banjarred, in order to claim its a hybrid. The area of south of kalimantan do not have red. So banjar red comes from what mix with what?

They;re in total isolation just like all the original arowana and evolve from there to their respective sub species. Nami, MG, Red, Green, batik and so on. Saying there're close relative is fair but not hybrid.

If banjar red is hybrid then there should be a formula where eg you can breed gold x rtg x red x green and so on = banjarred. But this isnt the case here you can make a banjarred from other species.

Fail cross breeding of red and naming it 1.5 red or banjar red is only a marketing term.

As for the batik and nami and saying there're the spin off from green is a mystery until proper DNA testing are done.

All the while people thought MG are closely related to green, but I heard DNA testing recently done by malaysian scientist prove that green are very closely related to Red, whereelse MG are closely related to RTG.

Another theory to back this up heard from a forumer is the titiwangsa mountain range that split up sumatera (RTG) and east (Green) and west (Nami and MG, further up of this mountain range will be the batik) coast of peninsular malaysia. the further end which is borneo you would find banjar red, super red and banjar red.

Hence we're not sure about batik and nami is from green or entirely on their own, from studies of the fish development I personally find it is way way different from green in terms of lustre, shine, pigmentation progress.

Hopefully proper DNA studies will be done for this 2 new species.

ausarow: thanks for sharing, but you really spoiled my fun with the 2 master.

Since you love question, here's your chance:
1) May you point to the reference where you got the above information? By reference, I mean print document, not "heard from a forumer!"
2) What is the scientific name for Banjar Red?
You are asking for proof, yet, a theory to back up what you said is "heard from a forumer!"