Trays in a canister filter. Why?

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
This is a fun discussion that is turning into a lecture without an end. This topic was not at all about any of this, and is initially a result of me brainfarting briefly.
Feel free to carry on though, without me

That`s what goes on with free and open discussions.
Often they take on a life of their own and leave the original topic.
Frankly, I like it.
Just like a box of chocolates, you never know what you`ll get.
 
KaiserSousay said:
As for the bacteria colonizing your fish tank - bacteria colonize the most suitable spot to live in, that is, the filter. As long as you have enough bio media, the amount of nitrfying bacteria in the actual aquarium will be minimal.

So, I`ll add your own words, "As for your opinion, any facts to back it up?"

I bought into the "bacteria colonize the most suitable spot to live in, that is, the filter." along with the need for ample "bio specific" media as the eleventh commandment of fish keeping.
See, it`s hard to make blanket statements like that.
I would guess there are a large number of tanks that have very little bacterial activity in the filtration and the owner only assumes his BB is in the media.
Only one way to know.
I took the challenge and removed "bio" media from my canisters and found the exact opposite of your statement, the bulk of my bacterial activity was not going on in the filtration.
I won`t say all systems are one way or the other.
I won`t even say, generally bacterial activity takes place in one area over another.
Way too many variables.
Click to expand...

Well than, you have a badly designed filter system. Bacteria always (just like ANY being) colonize the most suitable spot first. In a normal tank, with a well designed filter system and good flow (no dead spots), the bacteria will almost exclusively be located in the filter. However, with many variables considered, there are always other possibilities. My statement is merely a logical conclusion, based on facts. As for your theory about the tank containing massive bacteria, I've completely changed out my substrate on my overstocked tank multiple times with no adverse affects, even with no attempt whatsoever at relocating the beneficial bacteria in the substrate. How do you measure this "bulk of bacterial activity"? It is a fact, that ammonia concentration in a tank with no filter is set to rise slowly (unless hugely overstocked). It is also a fact, that both Nitrosomonas spp. and Nitrospira spp. have a division time (and therefore potential doubling time of the population) of about 12-32 hours (Wheaton et al., 1991). In many a tank, you would be unlikely to notice the shift in the population from the filter onto the substrate, if there was any bacteria in the substrate. In a system, where water travels slowly over the substrate and through the substrate, it is likely that the substrate is going to contain some beneficial bacteria. In a system with high flow just above the substrate (as is usually the case, when people want to prevent poop settling), there is likely to be some; however, minimal population of bacteria. Personally, I like redundancy and therefore use bio media, as there are always things that can and eventually will go wrong. While it's easy to take apart this opinion piece by little piece, focusing on "blanket statements", the facts behind it are real. Keep in mind, that English is not my 1st language and discrepancies in terminology, such as that one, are bound to happen.

HrHagel - it seems more like you do not know exactly what you are trying to say to begin with.
 
*facepalm*

Your "logical" conclusions are not based on fact. It is based on assumptions.

I won't go into detail as i simply put cannot be bothered. I am currently writing a paper on m-theory and that can draw a lot of energy out of one.

One thing i will point out to you, is the most major flaw of your assumptions, which is at the same time your best point. "Bacteria ALWAYS cultivate the most suitable spot". In a BROAD sense this is true, however the actualt fact is; The Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacters cultivates in the highest population where the most OXYGEN is. When talking about canister filters, the only source of Aeration is directly from the aquarium water itself, therefor the Aquarium water is 1st to Oxygenate and it is then distributed down to the canister filter. Think about that for a second and a lightbulb should pop.

Before presenting assumptions as facts, please atleast know the basics of the biology, before you string together a theory.
 
HrHagel said:
*facepalm*

Your "logical" conclusions are not based on fact. It is based on assumptions.

I won't go into detail as i simply put cannot be bothered. I am currently writing a paper on m-theory and that can draw a lot of energy out of one.

One thing i will point out to you, is the most major flaw of your assumptions, which is at the same time your best point. "Bacteria ALWAYS cultivate the most suitable spot". In a BROAD sense this is true, however the actualt fact is; The Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacters cultivates in the highest population where the most OXYGEN is. When talking about canister filters, the only source of Aeration is directly from the aquarium water itself, therefor the Aquarium water is 1st to Oxygenate and it is then distributed down to the canister filter. Think about that for a second and a lightbulb should pop.

Before presenting assumptions as facts, please atleast know the basics of the biology, before you string together a theory.
Click to expand...

the Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacters cultivate where there are high 02 levels AND surface area , and seeing as a canister filter uses a pump to force the water through it under pressure, there's plenty of 02 inside the canister where the bio live. Technically speaking, the area of highest 02 concentration and surface area is usually inside a filter weather it be a canister or a sump, seeing as the water column has no real surface area. I know theres no other place in any of my systems that has that much surface area or oxygen supply........maybe yours are different, but not mine.

I still think the biggest issue with no using trays in an canister is the fact that if you were to fill it all the way with a sponge or multiple sponges, the area where the water comes in would get dirty pretty quick, while the rest of the sponge would stay pretty clean. If you could figure out how to get all of the sponge to do the same amount of work, you might be on to something. The only real way to try is to set it up and see how it goes.

Good luck either way! Good discussion
 
In a well designed aquarium (proper turn over rates), the oxygen concentration is going to be the same in all parts of the water column (yes, yes, I know, you're going to say it gets depleted very very quickly in the filter, etc. etc. Even if it does, the front layers of the bio media will be where most of the bacteria are usually located. Also, that's why wet-dry filters are so popular ;)). The same goes for nitrogenous waste concentration. By definition, neither of these can be the limiting factor. The limiting factors can therefore be either a) surface area or b) retention time (if there is a c) that I am forgetting at the moment, please share). So, in other words, the growth of bacteria is limited by the space availability and by the time it takes for food to go past. A properly designed filter offers a better combination of these two than any surface in the actual tank.

P.s. let's leave the personal insults out of this debate, shall we? Maybe, than, some knowledge might DIFFUSE into the right place ;).
 
pk705 said:
HrHagel - it seems more like you do not know exactly what you are trying to say to begin with.
Click to expand...

HrHagel said:
Before presenting assumptions as facts, please atleast know the basics of the biology, before you string together a theory.
Click to expand...

pk705 said:
P.s. let's leave the personal insults out of this debate, shall we? Maybe, than, some knowledge might DIFFUSE into the right place ;).
Click to expand...

I don't see any personal insults anywhere in this entire thread. But if these outtakes even were personal insults, then hypocrisy be thy name. Can you spot the more personal one?

Have a nice evening gents.
 
HrHagel said:
But let me ask you this. Who has informed you of what the contact time needed for bacteria to grab hold on substances is? Is it your point of view, that if water flows through the filter quickly the bacteria cannot grab hold of the particles? Do you think of bacteria as having arms reaching out for particles passing by them, and if the velocity of the particles passing by is too great, they cannot grab it because they are too slow to react?
Click to expand...

Hello pot, my name is kettle. ;).
 
See,
Just when you thought you had a caramel center, it turned out to be toffee.

Pretty sure no one is going to sway the others to the way they think/know/have experienced/heard rumors of or any other way information gets pasted into the grey cells.
My position is known, as well as yours.
The one thing we should all be able to agree on is how cool is this?????
Slovenia
USA
Denmark
Add in all those just looking in.
Far cry from baud rates and local BBS…
 
Great discussion, especially when using experience rather than hearsay or opinion. My take on bio filtration:

I removed ALL biomedia in one of my established, larger, way overstocked tanks with Haps, six over a foot and another six very close behind, and fifty or so messy 6-8" mbuna. Guess what no one died and no spikes at all as I tested daily for two weeks to be sure.

Lottsa rockwork and close to 3000 gph turnover. The BB is pretty resourceful if you gives it the right place and conditions to call home. I have a planted fuge section in this particular sump and am pretty certain that is a major factor in this success.

Cans make for lousy mech filters. Not that they cannot perform well at it but that they need to be opened too often if mech filtration is their primary function and for someone who has been using cans for longer than I care to remember I can tell you the biggest flaw in cans comes when they get opened. Things break, seals leak and if it is not in the cabinet spare parts drawer usually what you need to get it running cannot be bought at your LFS. I tend to use cans for bio and the only mech in them is to keep the bio media clean for the two - three times a year I rinse them.

Sponges make for excellent mech filtration and even the first 1/2" or so on either side serves well as bio media. I use 'em on most of our tanks and am re resigning a sump to use poret.

Not sure a can stuffed with sponge will work out well in the long run as I believe you will be losing flowrates pretty quickly as they do their job and the the necessity to open the can to rinse them will cause the opportunity for gremlins to appear.

I look forward to your experiment using a can stuffed with sponge and hope you post your results.
 
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