id gar fry....i found me some!

[sbuse]

the first and last picture focus on the one gar that i notice has a slightly smaller snout and have a thicker jaw structure then the others. i think this is the one that could be a sng of all the others. it also has a darker stripe on the back and the belly the all the others.

also a fun fact. they have eaten over 150 guppies since friday.

 

[E_americanus]

great pics scott, and they are coming along well! based on what you are saying about the 1st and last pic (ID'ing them as the fish that seems different) and what we actually see in the photo, i would say it's a LNG just like the rest. although SNG and LNG may spawn in similar areas up there, it looks like this batch is entirely LNG now that we have had some time to see them progress. even though gars can spawn at the same time (there was an area in IL where we found LNG, SNG, and SPG), it doesn't often happen, and usually there is some size discrepancy upon capture since they tend to stagger spawning at least a little bit.
again, keep us posted; i'm going with LNG for the group given our latest info--
--solomon

 

[sbuse]

ok thanks. that was my initial gut feeling, but i saw this one looked different from the start. it still looks different, but close at the same time. all the other have a noticeable diff in length of snout overall. ya sng and lng are side by side and thats why i think i have a good chance at finding a midius(spell). i'll keep updating as they grow. one is 5" already!

 

[Wiggles92]

Those gars are looking pretty good, Scott!

 

[E_americanus]

ok thanks. that was my initial gut feeling, but i saw this one looked different from the start. it still looks different, but close at the same time. all the other have a noticeable diff in length of snout overall. ya sng and lng are side by side and thats why i think i have a good chance at finding a midius(spell). i'll keep updating as they grow. one is 5" already!

i have been meaning to dig up other early stage SNG pics, but this is a shot of a wild fish we caught in IL back in 2010 (Richard was also on this trip). unfortunately we didn't take a ton of pics of the SNGs as our focus was on the SPGs, but here is a young specimen and you can compare to your fish when they were the same size. as you can see, SNG actually have shorter snouts...these proportions change as the fish ages (we see the same in SPG and FLG too), but they are noticeably different than LNG even at this stage. i posted some later stage YOY SNG pics from that same year here on MFK (will dig them up), and you will see that YOY SNGs tend to look quite bizarre compared to their adult counterparts. hope this helps a bit for comparison--
--solomon

 

[sbuse]

Those gars are looking pretty good, Scott!

thanks ryan.

i have been meaning to dig up other early stage SNG pics, but this is a shot of a wild fish we caught in IL back in 2010 (Richard was also on this trip). unfortunately we didn't take a ton of pics of the SNGs as our focus was on the SPGs, but here is a young specimen and you can compare to your fish when they were the same size. as you can see, SNG actually have shorter snouts...these proportions change as the fish ages (we see the same in SPG and FLG too), but they are noticeably different than LNG even at this stage. i posted some later stage YOY SNG pics from that same year here on MFK (will dig them up), and you will see that YOY SNGs tend to look quite bizarre compared to their adult counterparts. hope this helps a bit for comparison--
--solomon

man they look close! the snout on mine is proportionately longer, but the structure looks the same. the other fish seem to have a thinner structure from what i can see up close. could just be a variation of this fish though. i know forrest was talking with me about doing some dna work on these fish, the smaller fish i have saved for the testing. there is a dna comparison paper about how all gars are a hybrid of some kind or another, it was a dr.'s thesis paper. it will be cool to see how this goes. i will be trying to breed them so all lng isn't bad for my overall plans. i just need to find a large group of sng to maybe get some chef boy 'r me hybrids out there through some cross pollination.

 

[E_americanus]

thanks ryan.
man they look close! the snout on mine is proportionately longer, but the structure looks the same. the other fish seem to have a thinner structure from what i can see up close. could just be a variation of this fish though. i know forrest was talking with me about doing some dna work on these fish, the smaller fish i have saved for the testing. there is a dna comparison paper about how all gars are a hybrid of some kind or another, it was a dr.'s thesis paper. it will be cool to see how this goes. i will be trying to breed them so all lng isn't bad for my overall plans. i just need to find a large group of sng to maybe get some chef boy 'r me hybrids out there through some cross pollination.

hey scott,

when it comes to larval/early stage juvenile gars, morphology is the main thing to pay attention to as general "structure" will be the same and pattern can be highly variable. at this stage pattern is really only useful in separating the genera. further, although it's always good to have dna samples from different populations, there is really no need to test these fish for species level differences...they are clearly longnose gars, so funds spent specifically for that purpose are more or less wasted. again, having samples saved doesn't hurt though.
in response to the highlight, i am not aware of any paper that says this, and it's fundamentally incorrect anyway...there are distinct species of gars, and although there are closely related species, and species definition in general is somewhat nebulous, all gars are not some form of hybrid. hybrid gars exist, but we don't have solid evidence of their being species, and there are plenty of established species they have been verified by morphology and genetics (we put out that paper on all gar species earlier this year). i'd be curious to read said paper reGARdless. if it's in reference to Forrest's boss, Justin Sipiorski, then that's just a misinterpretation of his dissertation, which i read and compared several of our analyses to over the past year.

again, keep us posted on their progress and good luck with the fish!--
--SRD

 

[sbuse]

hey scott,

when it comes to larval/early stage juvenile gars, morphology is the main thing to pay attention to as general "structure" will be the same and pattern can be highly variable. at this stage pattern is really only useful in separating the genera. further, although it's always good to have dna samples from different populations, there is really no need to test these fish for species level differences...they are clearly longnose gars, so funds spent specifically for that purpose are more or less wasted. again, having samples saved doesn't hurt though.
in response to the highlight, i am not aware of any paper that says this, and it's fundamentally incorrect anyway...there are distinct species of gars, and although there are closely related species, and species definition in general is somewhat nebulous, all gars are not some form of hybrid. hybrid gars exist, but we don't have solid evidence of their being species, and there are plenty of established species they have been verified by morphology and genetics (we put out that paper on all gar species earlier this year). i'd be curious to read said paper reGARdless. if it's in reference to Forrest's boss, Justin Sipiorski, then that's just a misinterpretation of his dissertation, which i read and compared several of our analyses to over the past year.

again, keep us posted on their progress and good luck with the fish!--
--SRD

i was just curious on all of it, the dna sampling was offered to me on these so i said why not it would be cool to see. i have not heard back yet on it, but either way i have some frozen. it isn't a big deal to me as they look like longnose so thats what they'll be.

i was just looking at that one since it was different while being similar. it is cool how they can be so different while so small. i'll have to remember how that small sng looks when i go and do my collections in other areas. it is a cool learning experience with these small gars. now they are the size of the other gars i have raised so i am in familiar grounds now, but actually having them from 2" and seeing first hand 1" fish is sweet!

as to the paper i didn't want to get to detailed on it because i have not read it myself, just been told about it. i'll have to find it and read it for myself. you got the right one though.

i will keep the updates going as these fish grow. i really hope to have them breed in the years to come. i have some plans to try out and see how it goes. i have been thinking about one way and that is if i have many they may have a better chance of spawning on there own. also i have some other things i am going to try to simulate some natural conditions to trigger spawning. all that is a good way down the road though.

edit: i found it and i will be reading it.

 

[sbuse]

update i lost 2 more including the one with the bent spine. they goat some sort of bloat and were still alive but stuck upside down until they died. i did another wc as i am not sure what happened. i did turn my ac off so the heat might have gotten to them in that small of a water volume.

 

[MonsterMinis]

i had similar issues with baby aba aba knives.. if your not, try surface skimming when doing water changes so when they come up to breathe the thin " layer" is as minimal as possible, i surmised my knives where actually swallowing bubbles and injesting them vs just breathing.. not sure if this is accurate but once i did this i had success with raising one. I just use a wide mouthed cup and skim off about 10% per day, atm doing this for my baby tank as well as a precaution.