Line Breeding -- Where is the Line?

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Sorry to be late to the party. Not up to reading the entire thread at the moment but to speak to your OP.

Firstly you must consider the fish. By that I mean there is a very dramatic difference in the results of line breeding in different animals because some fish are VERY predisposed to inbreeding and have a amazing genetic buffer to it. Certain african cichlids can inbreed and inbreed for over dozens or perhaps 100 generations with little ill effect. That proves the point that you can probably line breed those fish without loosing the WILD appearance. At most you might see an improvement or degradation of color based on the breeding habits.

Inversely as you've sighted other fish, apparently angel fish can easily go into decline rapidly from captive breeding. Now in the case of angels I would point out that their growth and fineage development is probably DRAMATICALLY effected by the tank they are raised in, the flow of the water, and other factors. you could rapidly create an unintentional situation of fish being stunted or even more dramatically "wiped out" or "allowed to live" simply by changing water flow in the tank. Take the instance of too much flow in a tank with fry, bam your longer finned offspring will suffer, stress, die and you are left with the shorter finned and more physically robust specimens. On the flip side say you only use sponge filters, you have NO current in your tank, odds are some more fintastic angels will survive than would in the wild to reach adult hood. Now you are like, WOW that is a cool angel lets breed that outlier. And there ya go, 2 generations in and you have made a huge shift. So many variables and considerations. If the preservation of the natural form is to be our goal we must be extremely perceptive to all the possibilities.

The single greatest evil to me(with regards to this topic) is hybridization and full on gene splicing. Those glow danios and flower-horns are chief offenders. I refuse to ever breed them or give a breeder business. I'm not about to buy up and cull them, that is nuts. But I won't put money in the hands for their makers.
 
I believe that line breeding in the wild is way more extreme than in aquaria... If only the strongest/smartest/luckiest fish survive then all the adult fish in the wild would be considered the cream of the crop and when those fish breed and the strongest from that batch survive the bloodline only gets stronger and so forth. In aquariums hundreds of fry survive and we aren't picky about 1/2"-2" fry we ship and sell around to everyone (me included) so people aren't getting the most resilient or highest quality fish as when an adult fish is caught from the wild. So us raising up as many fry as will live may be in fact hurting the line when the fish distributed are not the so called cream of the crop.

Many high end breeders will cull their lines to prevent this issue.
 
Sorry to be late to the party. Not up to reading the entire thread at the moment but to speak to your OP.

Firstly you must consider the fish. By that I mean there is a very dramatic difference in the results of line breeding in different animals because some fish are VERY predisposed to inbreeding and have a amazing genetic buffer to it. Certain african cichlids can inbreed and inbreed for over dozens or perhaps 100 generations with little ill effect. That proves the point that you can probably line breed those fish without loosing the WILD appearance. At most you might see an improvement or degradation of color based on the breeding habits.

Inversely as you've sighted other fish, apparently angel fish can easily go into decline rapidly from captive breeding. Now in the case of angels I would point out that their growth and fineage development is probably DRAMATICALLY effected by the tank they are raised in, the flow of the water, and other factors. you could rapidly create an unintentional situation of fish being stunted or even more dramatically "wiped out" or "allowed to live" simply by changing water flow in the tank. Take the instance of too much flow in a tank with fry, bam your longer finned offspring will suffer, stress, die and you are left with the shorter finned and more physically robust specimens. On the flip side say you only use sponge filters, you have NO current in your tank, odds are some more fintastic angels will survive than would in the wild to reach adult hood. Now you are like, WOW that is a cool angel lets breed that outlier. And there ya go, 2 generations in and you have made a huge shift. So many variables and considerations. If the preservation of the natural form is to be our goal we must be extremely perceptive to all the possibilities.

The single greatest evil to me(with regards to this topic) is hybridization and full on gene splicing. Those glow danios and flower-horns are chief offenders. I refuse to ever breed them or give a breeder business. I'm not about to buy up and cull them, that is nuts. But I won't put money in the hands for their makers.

Great stuff. You explained in avery simplistic terms what i mean, and you gave aperfevt example, when i state that wilds change in our tanks, quicker than we may think.
 
But I think the question is: Do wild-type lines of fish (or wild fish for that matter) change in captivity (morphologically and/or genetically) that make them less viable in nature...less viable in captivity / aesthetically... or both?

My bet is that captivity changes fish in ways that makes them less suited to their wild habitats (in a very short amount of time morphologically - jaw structures, lips, alimentary systems...and in a few generations genetically, depending on rigor / quality of species maintenance program)...and better adapted to life in captivity (and also more in line with the aesthetic desires of aquarists, again based on the rigor / quality of captive breeding program).

Matt

Great stuff. You explained in avery simplistic terms what i mean, and you gave aperfevt example, when i state that wilds change in our tanks, quicker than we may think.
 
Exactly. My point all along. So, as you yourself stated, Matt, hobbyists like you do what you can to stay as true to the wild lines as humanly possible, but they do change, internally, behaviourally and or morphologically.
 
But I think the question is: Do wild-type lines of fish (or wild fish for that matter) change in captivity (morphologically and/or genetically) that make them less viable in nature...less viable in captivity / aesthetically... or both?

My bet is that captivity changes fish in ways that makes them less suited to their wild habitats (in a very short amount of time morphologically - jaw structures, lips, alimentary systems...and in a few generations genetically, depending on rigor / quality of species maintenance program)...and better adapted to life in captivity (and also more in line with the aesthetic desires of aquarists, again based on the rigor / quality of captive breeding program).

Matt

To address that I again believe it depends on the fish. If some species are so resilient to inbreeding why wouldn't they resist the effects of captive line breeding in a similar fashion. Not to say it couldn't change them just that its a case by case basis and we need to recognize that. Seems its hard to make generalized statements in this regard.

Not too long ago there was and interesting thread on the state of festae in the hobby. Wonder if there are any great nuggets in there that might shed some light on this discussion.


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