Effects of origin on Cichlid coloration

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BassetsForBrown

Plecostomus
MFK Member
Dec 2, 2012
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Boston
Hi,
I posted yesterday asking for a sexing of my Green Terror. Today two individuals who's options of SA/CA's I hold in high regard saw my GT in person. Both said it was female. However, both were also shocked at the intensity and pronouncement of the GT's coloration considering her size/youth, and that she is in fact a female. The LFS I bought her from (at about 1inch, 2.54cm) said the young GT's he had were bred from a pair of adults he personally captured off the coast of Peru several years ago. He showed me the pair he was referring to - both are absolutely breathtaking. (A bit of reading assured me that GT's are really native to the Peruvian coast as well)

At the time of purchase, this man said that these baby fish were more likely to have the same sort of magnificent coloration themselves, not just because of genetics, but also because they are the first generation offspring of truly wild-caught GTs. At the time I politely nodded, paid him, and laughed at what I considered a silly sales tactic on my way out. In retrospect though, looking at my fish, could it be that this is really true? Unless I just got lucky, why would my female be so effing bright and gorgeous?

I could understand why wild fish may have better coloration, but is it actually true that closely descended offspring are more likely to also?

Thanks, I look forward to your responses.
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Well if he is telling the truth then yes that would explain the coloration. Health and how the fish are kept play a role too. It's all these things that come together that make a brilliantly colored fish.


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At the time of purchase, this man said that these baby fish were more likely to have the same sort of magnificent coloration themselves, not just because of genetics, but also because they are the first generation offspring of truly wild-caught GTs.
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Nice, romantic theory, but let me ask this. If the parents were two mediocre, blandly colored wild caught specimens what are the chances of getting the same spectacular fry?

It's still basically the combination of genetics (whether individual or those of a particular wild population or breeding strain), nutrition, water chemistry and other environmental keys, whether wild caught, F1, line bred, etc. Even if you assume that because the parents were wild caught, there's potentially more diversity in their DNA than a more closely related tank raised pair, that's still genetics at work, not something mystical about the parents being wild caught that goes beyond genetics or the other usual factors.

I've done a lot of cichlid breeding and (assuming reasonable nutrition, water quality, etc.) high quality parents tend to produce high quality fry, poor quality parents probably not. Even in the odd case that a particular combination of high quality parents produces mediocre fry due to some quirk of their particular combination of genes (or special cases, like EBJD), you can fix it by switching partners to get the right combination for high quality fry. Also, out of dozens or hundreds of eggs (depending on species) most parents (wild or not) will produce exceptional, pick of the litter type offspring as well as a few that aren't up to the rest, or a few weaker fry that some serious breeders might cull.
 
There are already several "sex my GT" threads on this page. GT is hard to sex because there are no external differences between the sex until they reach 4 to 5 inch. At that size, male will have a slightly deeper forehead, slightly longer fins and brigher color. But the clues are too subtle to be a sure thing as many dominant female can be just as colorful as male. So I am not surprised that you were surprised that the GT you always thought male turned out to be a female. It has happened to me too. A sure thing is to examine the vent when the fish is 4 to 5 inch ,but at that size, it is too late to be useful because they are ready to breed and you can tell the sex by observing their pairing behavior.
 
viejafish said:
GT is hard to sex because there are no external differences between the sex until they reach 4 to 5 inch. At that size, male will have a slightly deeper forehead, slightly longer fins and brigher color. But the clues are too subtle to be a sure thing as many dominant female can be just as colorful as male. So I am not surprised that you were surprised that the GT you always thought male turned out to be a female. It has happened to me too. A sure thing is to examine the vent when the fish is 4 to 5 inch ,but at that size, it is too late to be useful because they are ready to breed and you can tell the sex by observing their pairing behavior.
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I do not necessarily agree with this information. There are external differences, just need to know how to identify them properly.


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GreenTerror3003 said:
I do not necessarily agree with this information. There are external differences, just need to know how to identify them properly.


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Sure, there are external differences between the sex, but you have to wait till the fish are over 4 inch. The first pic are all males with hump developed, and the second pic is a female. These fish are big, between 6 to 9 inch, when the sexual differences become obvious.

I raised 100s of GT from fry to adulthood, and have difficulty telling the sex apart until they are at least 4 inch. I am still surprised from time to time to mis ID the sex as the more colorful, larger fish turned into female. There are simply no external differences between sex when GT are small and need to reach 4 inch or larger to be sexable.

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Not to argue with anyone above, but ime longer, pointier fins and/or hump on the head for males (hump varies between individuals ime), pretty much as you can see in the photos above. Color not necessarily much difference, again, depending on particular fish. At what size/age you can distinguish them varies with individual and/or how perceptive you are, but as mentioned above they need to get some size to them to see it and, yes, you can get fooled sometimes.
 
tiger15 said:
Sure, there are external differences between the sex, but you have to wait till the fish are over 4 inch. The first pic are all males with hump developed, and the second pic is a female. These fish are big, between 6 to 9 inch, when the sexual differences become obvious.

I raised 100s of GT from fry to adulthood, and have difficulty telling the sex apart until they are at least 4 inch. I am still surprised from time to time to mis ID the sex as the more colorful, larger fish turned into female. There are simply no external differences between sex when GT are small and need to reach 4 inch or larger to be sexable.
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You said that no external differences exist, but then you said that they do exist after four inches which seems contradicting. Why four inches, why not three inches, why not two inches. This idea does not seem feasible because there are no certain lengths for identifying fish. I also do not understand why breeding Green Terrors is necessarily relevant; I have also bred many Green Terrors, but that does not mean a person grows hundreds of fry into adulthood to ultimately determine the gender. Finally, I also do not understand why many people tend to think all males have a nuchal hump or will always develop a nuchal hump; this is simply false information because many many male Green Terrors do not develop nuchal humps. Some do develop them and some do not develop them, so this is not a primary indicator; unless the male has a definite nuchal hump, then the person can probably be assured that it is a male. I agree with venting fish to determine a fish's gender with reasonable accuracy, but again, there are many indicators if a person knows what to look for to help identify the gender. A majority depends on how well the perception is with the person because some people have experience and can identify subtle differences more easily than some other people.


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