The Elephant in the Living Room

[dxdx]

Good for you. As I am willing to put for the effort to own a serval but cant (not deadly) due to a crappy permit system just because people like to you like to judge, I am not.

Im glad you feel good about judging and controlling others.

Can you tell us specifics of why you can't get one due to the "crappy" system? Care to scan any documentation you have and show it to us?

If the system is flawed, that doesn't mean it should be thrown out altogether. Maybe you could sue your county if you have satisfied all the permit requirements.


I'm glad to control some idiot neighbor who wants to put a tiger in their back yard.

Not going to apologize for the safety of my kids. As I said before, I don't think they should be banned, but a stringent permit system would reduce (not eliminate) accidents and deaths by requiring inspection of housing/caging.

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

Can you tell us specifics of why you can't get one due to the "crappy" system? Care to scan any documentation you have and show it to us?

If the system is flawed, that doesn't mean it should be thrown out altogether. Maybe you could sue your county if you have satisfied all the permit requirements.


I'm glad to control some idiot neighbor who wants to put a tiger in their back yard.

Not going to apologize for the safety of my kids. As I said before, I don't think they should be banned, but a stringent permit system would reduce (not eliminate) accidents and deaths by requiring inspection of housing/caging.

What accidents? Please INFORM ME. Show me as many as you can. Show me a tiger getting out and harming anyone other than its owner or someone who helps him. Frankly show me those too. Your kids are way way more in danger riding in your car than me owning a tiger. Heck statisticly they are in more danger from YOU than if I lived next door with a tiger. Its not even close dude. But dont let logic get in your way, please.

My permit system in PA

2 years first hand experience with the EXACT SPECIES YOU WANT. Want a tiger? 2 years with a tiger. Want a lion? 2 years with a lion. A tiger permit is not good for a lion. A hybrid cat is the same. A fishing cat (not deadly) requires the same. A freakin ant eatter is the same. Dont forget the uber deadly sugar glider. Its 2 yr per animal. Unless you work with EVERY animal you want to ever own in your life in your first two years, you will be spending everyday in a zoo or other facility. Oh and it must be one of the facilities they approve, and well they arnt many. If the facility 30 min away doesnt have what you want, too bad unless you want to drive 3 hrs to the next closest one. Oh and if your a year in and that facility loses your animal, go to the next one. Dont forget, they can change the system at any time. Here is a kicker too. Even if you fulfill all the requirements (more than the few I listed) they can just say, "nope not giving you one" and you have no recourse. That is actually what has been going on in PA.
From a few min looking around, there are only 28 individual ownership permits, 11 dealer permits and 112 menegerie permits (think zoos). So essentially, you get nothing.




Sp that requires a permit
(1) In the family Felidae. Species and subspecies, except species which are commonly called house cats which may be possessed but not released into the wild. Lawfully acquired bobcats-Lynx rufus-may be imported or possessed, or both, by licensed propagators specifically for propagation for fur farming purposes. Importation permits and transfer permits as mentioned in subsections (d) and (e) are not required for bobcats imported for propagation for fur farming purposes. Bobcats imported under this exception and their progeny may not be sold or transferred for wildlife pet purposes or released into the wild.

(2) In the family Canidae. Species and subspecies of the coyote, the red and gray fox and a full-blooded wolf or crossbreed thereof not licensed by the Department of Agriculture. Lawfully acquired coyotes and red or gray foxes may be imported or possessed, or both, by licensed propagators specifically for propagation for fur farming purposes. Coyotes and red and gray foxes imported under this exception and their progeny may not be sold or transferred for wildlife pet purposes or released into the wild. This subsection does not permit the sale for release or the release of the mammals into the wild.

(3) In the family Ursidae. All species of the bears.

(4) In the family Procyonidae. All species of raccoons.

(5) In the family Capromyidae. The nutria.

(6) In the family Mustelidae. All species of the skunks.

(7) The order Primates. All families of nonhuman primates.

(8) An animal, bird or egg of a bird listed by the Commonwealth or the United States Department of the Interior as threatened, endangered or injurious.

(9) The Monk Parakeet, Myiopsitts monachus, sometimes referred to as the Quaker Parakeet or Gray-headed Parakeet.

(10) Game or wildlife taken alive from the wild, except the Commission may import wildlife taken from the wild for enhancement of this Commonwealth's wild fauna.

(11) Game or wild held captive. Game or wildlife held in captivity or captive bred in another state or nation.

 

[MN_Rebel]

^Let's be realistic, someone needs to checking on the people that wants to own these larger predators. There have few reports of exotic predators escaped or dumped by some idiots or have children injured by these predators. I don't have any problems with anyone owning exotics in general...but I do have concerns with some people that wants to own larger predators. Not reptiles or some small exotic felines. I do not say that we need to banning the ownership of exotic animals. It's just I do have a problem with idiots owning the larger predators. Here we have a feral population of mountain lions in southern MN. It is not uncommon for some wackos to dumping exotic predators out in the wild, unfortunately. It's also common that most exotic predators ended up in the hands of idiots. Not too long ago, someone dumped some wolf hybrids in middle of the farmland and killed some miniature horses and injured some cows nearby.

 

[snakeguy101]

^Let's be realistic, someone needs to checking on the people that wants to own these larger predators. There have few reports of exotic predators escaped or dumped by some idiots or have children injured by these predators. I don't have any problems with anyone owning exotics in general...but I do have concerns with some people that wants to own larger predators. Not reptiles or some small exotic felines. I do not say that we need to banning the ownership of exotic animals. It's just I do have a problem with idiots owning the larger predators. Here we have a feral population of mountain lions in southern MN. It is not uncommon for some wackos to dumping exotic predators out in the wild, unfortunately. It's also common that most exotic predators ended up in the hands of idiots. Not too long ago, someone dumped some wolf hybrids in middle of the farmland and killed some miniature horses and injured some cows nearby.

Both of the examples you mentioned are from native animals. Minnesota has a resident population of Puma concolor. It likely was not a released pet but an allopatric population that has been very well studied. Also, wolves are very common in certain areas of Minnesota and so are wild dog packs. What makes you think that the hybrids were released pets and not offspring from merged canid packs?

Furthermore should these hybrids be regulated on the same level as tigers? What about medium sized cats such as servals or bobcats? How about fishing cats or maine coon cats? Where do you draw the line and why draw it there? Stop to think about it and even house cats are deadly animals in the right situation.

As far as the laws go- everything has already been covered under animal cruelty and public endangerment. There is no need for regulation beyond that.

 

[snakeguy101]

^Let's be realistic, someone needs to checking on the people that wants to own these larger predators. There have few reports of exotic predators escaped or dumped by some idiots or have children injured by these predators. I don't have any problems with anyone owning exotics in general...but I do have concerns with some people that wants to own larger predators. Not reptiles or some small exotic felines. I do not say that we need to banning the ownership of exotic animals. It's just I do have a problem with idiots owning the larger predators. Here we have a feral population of mountain lions in southern MN. It is not uncommon for some wackos to dumping exotic predators out in the wild, unfortunately. It's also common that most exotic predators ended up in the hands of idiots. Not too long ago, someone dumped some wolf hybrids in middle of the farmland and killed some miniature horses and injured some cows nearby.

Both of the examples you mentioned are from native animals. Minnesota has a resident population of Puma concolor. It likely was not a released pet but an allopatric population that has been very well studied. Also, wolves are very common in certain areas of Minnesota and so are wild dog packs. What makes you think that the hybrids were released pets and not offspring from merged canid packs?

Furthermore should these hybrids be regulated on the same level as tigers? What about medium sized cats such as servals or bobcats? How about fishing cats or maine coon cats? Where do you draw the line and why draw it there? Stop to think about it and even house cats are deadly animals in the right situation.

As far as the laws go- everything has already been covered under animal cruelty and public endangerment. There is no need for regulation beyond that.

 

[MN_Rebel]

Both of the examples you mentioned are from native animals. Minnesota has a resident population of Puma concolor. It likely was not a released pet but an allopatric population that has been very well studied. Also, wolves are very common in certain areas of Minnesota and so are wild dog packs. What makes you think that the hybrids were released pets and not offspring from merged canid packs?

Furthermore should these hybrids be regulated on the same level as tigers? What about medium sized cats such as servals or bobcats? How about fishing cats or maine coon cats? Where do you draw the line and why draw it there? Stop to think about it and even house cats are deadly animals in the right situation.

As far as the laws go- everything has already been covered under animal cruelty and public endangerment. There is no need for regulation beyond that.

The southern cougar population in MN are not from North America as the DNA has revealed that they are South American puma, not same subspecies of our native cougar. It's a common knowledge that the cougars in southern MN comes from dumping into the "wild" by the idiots. The native cougar population are not even in southern MN.

The wolf hybrid incident are not even in Minnesota or in the wolf range! The incident is in Oklahama where there are no wild population of grey wolves and all wolf dogs involved have collars on them. Another problem for you that wolves and dogs are not interbreeding in the wild as the wolves prefer to eat them than mate with the dogs. There is no record of the natural wolf hybrid ever born in wild from a true wild wolf and a stray dog. Wolves are LOCALLY common but they are only confirmed to northern regions of Minnesota, not the entire state.

I hate to say this but the ownership on the larger predators needs have some regulations, like it or not! You will always have idiots running around.

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

Can u provide any links to what you claim? Also if you can, can it provide an origin of the animal in question? My bet is if it can, its from a zoo.

 

[MN_Rebel]

Can u provide any links to what you claim? Also if you can, can it provide an origin of the animal in question? My bet is if it can, its from a zoo.

I have a question for you. What it makes you think they come from zoos? Or you don't want to believe that there are idiots that released exotic predators? Sorry but the animals in the question do not come from zoo.

 

[Lepisosteus platyrhincus]

so I have been searching. I can find nothing to back up your claims MN on the cougars. I am interested in reading it if you can provide any info.

Your claim of the wolf dogs was verified. It was verified to be a pet (as they had collars) that likely escaped and killed a miniture horse. No human injuries nor can I find any claim of those dogs attacking people. In fact, I can find many sorces selling these hybrids and yet they have only been linked to 15 deaths (number 9 on the list fyi). Considering there is an est 300,000-500,000 or more in the US.......... Heck there is even more german shepherds in the US than that and that 100 year old breed has DIRECT links to wolves. Pure breed wolves where actually breed with the dogs to make todays German Shepherds.

As far as no natural wolf hybrids, a few min of quick search says differently.

Facts are not on your side dude. Nor are they on Buffalos, which is why he havnt came back.

I have a question for you. What it makes you think they come from zoos? Or you don't want to believe that there are idiots that released exotic predators? Sorry but the animals in the question do not come from zoo.

I say zoos because they account for the pythons in the everglades as well as other various animals if im not mistaken. You still wont answer me. Can you provide any proof? I believe there are idiots that release but i also know escapes from zoos happen. I also know, for there to be a breeding population that would require a group to be released which again would suggest a zoo that had escapes.

 

[MN_Rebel]

so I have been searching. I can find nothing to back up your claims MN on the cougars. I am interested in reading it if you can provide any info.

Your claim of the wolf dogs was verified. It was verified to be a pet (as they had collars) that likely escaped and killed a miniture horse. No human injuries nor can I find any claim of those dogs attacking people. In fact, I can find many sorces selling these hybrids and yet they have only been linked to 15 deaths (number 9 on the list fyi). Considering there is an est 300,000-500,000 or more in the US.......... Heck there is even more german shepherds in the US than that and that 100 year old breed has DIRECT links to wolves. Pure breed wolves where actually breed with the dogs to make todays German Shepherds.

As far as no natural wolf hybrids, a few min of quick search says differently.

Facts are not on your side dude. Nor are they on Buffalos, which is why he havnt came back.



I say zoos because they account for the pythons in the everglades as well as other various animals if im not mistaken. You still wont answer me. Can you provide any proof? I believe there are idiots that release but i also know escapes from zoos happen. I also know, for there to be a breeding population that would require a group to be released which again would suggest a zoo that had escapes.

Like I said, there is a reason why I believe that ownership of larger exotic predators NEEDs to be regulated and required to have a permit to own them. Sure there are more German shepherd in U.S than wolves. However you failed to mentioned that most states it is illegal to own wolves and the wolf hybrids and only very few states allowed the ownership of wolves & wolf hybrids.

As I said before, there is NO report of a wild wolf mated with a dog in the wild, produced a natural wolfdog. If you were talking about a Mexican grey wolf mated with a dog, you are probably right but that wolf was capitive-bred released by F&W. But in reality, 99% the wild wolves prefer to eat them than mate with the dogs if they were met in the wild.

As for the mountain lions being South American in MN, I believe there is some evidence that some cougars may not from the Dakotas.

http://www.rmrs.nau.edu/wildlife/genetics/gfh1.html (READ THE WHOLE PAGE)

I'm sure everyone knows Minnesota Zoo has cougars on the display. Interesting fact for you guys, these cougars were orphaned when their mother were killed in self-defense. The mother is a dumped pet puma as the DNA revealed that she do not come from North Dakota populations. This incident was in 1992. Another incident in Champlin Park few years ago, involving an obviously fat captive-bred puma roaming in the rural areas. That cat was never seen again.

Then there's some South American genetics floating in some cougar populations, mostly eastern United States populations and there is verified cases of SA pumas being found in the wild of North America. You know that South America puma are one of popular exotic big cats in private collection.

So what you want me to say that all of escaped/dumped exotic predators came from a zoo? As I'm glad that permit exists to keep idiots out from owning the exotic predators.