From 135 to 240...still single?

[Frank Castle]

You need to 'overstock' in order to mess up any hierarchy structure.

Add as many fish as you can at the same time to avoid any bullying.

Amazing size tank you have there! Enjoy it, don't stress!

This is exactly what you need to do for now then sort it out later once you observe who is boss vs. weaklings. Ironically the new guy has a biit of good advice here while Ehh seems to like giving bad advice on a regular basis at this point, so don't take his advice and give a single Vieja a 240g tank. That's the LAST thing you need is one fish that already has an attitude becoming SUPER-dominant in a tank big enough for at least half-a-dozen fish if not more. You put him in there by himself now and you'll NEVER get him to allow anything else in there and your $2,000 tank will stay that way as long as he is in there. The key for doing this type of stuff is having enough brutes to make sure none of them receive too much focus from any of the others - without enough fish all of their attention will be on each other constantly. In any of my growouts, I always had problems in the early stages because I simply didn't have enough fish to prevent total dictatorship......slowly as I added more and more fish it started to calm down until harmony was achieved.

You see, the "problem" with planning for life is exactly the issue you're having right now - you want to do right by the fish and give it ample space and a good life, but in the process of getting there they get spoiled - when in reality, just like our kids, they need to be taught to share. Funny as it sounds, a 240g could house 20 fish to start, ultimately yielding 10 that will get along peacefully, BUT they need to be raised that way or at least have other fish of equal size and power to keep them in check. This is why the use of growouts can be so handy......having them spend all that time in closer quarters teaches them to get along and when there is dissent among the ranks, we add caves, PVC pipes, and other hide-space to break up the visual barriers and let them "go to their room" when they can't play nice.

For starters, I would vote a 240g that you are trying to house multiple fish in should have a minimum of 500lbs of rock-work, a base of at least 10 PVC Pipe T-joints and various flowerpots and strawberry planters to begin. You are ALWAYS going to have problems keeping 2 Cichlids or even 3 or 4 in a tank that size.....they simply can't help themselves to causing mischief and by adding some more fish, providing 2-3 caves and hide-spots per fish and making sure these hide-spots will allow fish to completely leave the sight of others when they need to will be the best start for keeping an aggressive cichlid community.

Always remember:

Wide open tank with a few cichlids = chaos and fighting

Heavily "decorated" tank w/ more caves and hide-spaces = a good chance at success.

Simply weed out the problem fish as you observe and relocate as needed. If you're like me, you have dozens of empty tanks lying around the house

 

[manda4]

This is exactly what you need to do for now then sort it out later once you observe who is boss vs. weaklings. Ironically the new guy has a biit of good advice here while Ehh seems to like giving bad advice on a regular basis at this point, so don't take his advice and give a single Vieja a 240g tank. That's the LAST thing you need is one fish that already has an attitude becoming SUPER-dominant in a tank big enough for at least half-a-dozen fish if not more. You put him in there by himself now and you'll NEVER get him to allow anything else in there and your $2,000 tank will stay that way as long as he is in there. The key for doing this type of stuff is having enough brutes to make sure none of them receive too much focus from any of the others - without enough fish all of their attention will be on each other constantly. In any of my growouts, I always had problems in the early stages because I simply didn't have enough fish to prevent total dictatorship......slowly as I added more and more fish it started to calm down until harmony was achieved.

You see, the "problem" with planning for life is exactly the issue you're having right now - you want to do right by the fish and give it ample space and a good life, but in the process of getting there they get spoiled - when in reality, just like our kids, they need to be taught to share. Funny as it sounds, a 240g could house 20 fish to start, ultimately yielding 10 that will get along peacefully, BUT they need to be raised that way or at least have other fish of equal size and power to keep them in check. This is why the use of growouts can be so handy......having them spend all that time in closer quarters teaches them to get along and when there is dissent among the ranks, we add caves, PVC pipes, and other hide-space to break up the visual barriers and let them "go to their room" when they can't play nice.

For starters, I would vote a 240g that you are trying to house multiple fish in should have a minimum of 500lbs of rock-work, a base of at least 10 PVC Pipe T-joints and various flowerpots and strawberry planters to begin. You are ALWAYS going to have problems keeping 2 Cichlids or even 3 or 4 in a tank that size.....they simply can't help themselves to causing mischief and by adding some more fish, providing 2-3 caves and hide-spots per fish and making sure these hide-spots will allow fish to completely leave the sight of others when they need to will be the best start for keeping an aggressive cichlid community.

Always remember:

Wide open tank with a few cichlids = chaos and fighting

Heavily "decorated" tank w/ more caves and hide-spaces = a good chance at success.

Simply weed out the problem fish as you observe ad relocate as needed. If you're like me, you have dozens of empty tanks lying around the house

I do always ha've tanks...and this is my first semi confident attempt at an aggressive community tank. I think I'll look for some smaller veijas, like the black belts I just found about two hours away, and keep Pretz in the tank he is currently in. Thank you for your response. Very helpful info.

 

[Frank Castle]

I do always ha've tanks...and this is my first semi confident attempt at an aggressive community tank. I think I'll look for some smaller veijas, like the black belts I just found about two hours away, and keep Pretz in the tank he is currently in. Thank you for your response. Very helpful info.

You don't have to keep it to JUST Viejas.....there are plenty of other aggressive cichlids out there that will work wonderfully in that set-up. While Parachromis can be a PITA to keep communicably, I have found Jaguars are actually rather docile in my experience, which is 8 out of 8, (not counting thousands of fry)......I have even had breeding pairs in community tanks w/ JDs, FHs, Convicts, FMs, etc. Amphilophus females do a great job of "taking no guff" but not being savage killers like the males end up, while large Pike cichlids which behave similarly to Parachromis should also thrive. Jacks are a great large "dither" for big cichlid communities also being not-too-aggressive and not-too-passive. Green terrors can be a risk, but a large male will work similarly to JDs while the smaller females can have extraordinary tempers and constantly chase other fish, again depending on the individual.

IME/IMO, Firemouths, JDs, Jewels and Convicts will act as hardcore "dithers" in almost any aggressive tank and love the cover, so the chances of them getting beat-up are slim as long as they have smaller caves other larger fish can not enter. The same can be said for groups of armored catfish such as Raphaels, larger Hoplos, larger Pimelodus, etc as well as non-armored catfish sometimes like Eclipse, Shovelnose, Channels, and Synodontis. Despite not being heavily armored, nothing seems to care about them in my tanks, and like the others will favor the caves during the day and emerge at night to forage. While i'm sure you have plenty of RTM growouts from your pairs, they might be a good tankmate for fish that get along with NOTHING lol and I have also become quite fond of "Geophagus" brasiliensis......a beautiful fish that grows large and is not only very tough and aggressive enough for cichlid community, they are also incredibly hardy and adaptable to temperatures and water parameters, being found in pure FW to several miles out in the Ocean. I would also venture the Mayan cichlid, Texas and Trimac to also fit into that group you would likely be able to keep together, the former 2 also being found in Brackish or SW as well.

The list of what you COULD do is endless, but ultimately you should have PLENTY of choices to pick from and it will be your own little piece of Heaven when it's finished, so have fun with it.

 

[Stanzzzz7]

This is where I have to disagree with Frank.Im not saying this approach is wrong I just don't think it's ultimately good for the fish or provides a pleasing display.
For me overstocked tanks are a ticking time bomb that produce lots of rescue fish for surplus.
Eventually the tank will produce an alpha fish that will chase and harass any competitors until they wither away in a top corner of the tank until dead or becoming another rescue case.
Veija do not like their own kind once mature or other veija species.They do pair off and are normally well behaved with each other once a pair bond is achieved.
The other problem with over stocked tanks are nitrogen cycle management becomes harder causing extra water changes and tank maintenance.
I also find the idea of a natural looking aquascape far more appealing than a load of rocks, flower pots and pvc pipes.
To my way of thinking its far more rewarding to grow on a pair of veija and observe fascinating breeding and courtship rituals,allowing the fish the space they deserve to act relatively natural.
Without the hassle of the next alpha male to start beating on them when he decides to do so.
Bacterial infections are also lurking around the corner when large c/a cichlids are housed this way.
You can keep just a few cichlids in a big tank successfully as long as you do your homework and choose the right fish.
Veija are notoriously hard to do this with other veija. There are many alternatives.
I kept my large pairs of veija with a group of firemouths and a shoal of swordtails.
Firemouths are completely different in shape and appearance to veija so never viewed as a threat.The swordtails added extra movement and colour. The smaller size of the firemouths and the swords also complimented the veija.It made them look bigger and more impressive.
If you want a pleasing aquascape and don't want to be taking injured,stressed out fish to the fish store all the time then give them the space they deserve and don't cram them in like sardines.Its not a nice way to keep c/a cichlids.

 

[Frank Castle]

This is where I have to disagree with Frank.Im not saying this approach is wrong I just don't think it's ultimately good for the fish or provides a pleasing display.
For me overstocked tanks are a ticking time bomb that produce lots of rescue fish for surplus.
Eventually the tank will produce an alpha fish that will chase and harass any competitors until they wither away in a top corner of the tank until dead or becoming another rescue case.
Veija do not like their own kind once mature or other veija species.They do pair off and are normally well behaved with each other once a pair bond is achieved.
The other problem with over stocked tanks are nitrogen cycle management becomes harder causing extra water changes and tank maintenance.
I also find the idea of a natural looking aquascape far more appealing than a load of rocks, flower pots and pvc pipes.
To my way of thinking its far more rewarding to grow on a pair of veija and observe fascinating breeding and courtship rituals,allowing the fish the space they deserve to act relatively natural.
Without the hassle of the next alpha male to start beating on them when he decides to do so.
Bacterial infections are also lurking around the corner when large c/a cichlids are housed this way.
You can keep just a few cichlids in a big tank successfully as long as you do your homework and choose the right fish.
Veija are notoriously hard to do this with other veija. There are many alternatives.
I kept my large pairs of veija with a group of firemouths and a shoal of swordtails.
Firemouths are completely different in shape and appearance to veija so never viewed as a threat.The swordtails added extra movement and colour. The smaller size of the firemouths and the swords also complimented the veija.It made them look bigger and more impressive.
If you want a pleasing aquascape and don't want to be taking injured,stressed out fish to the fish store all the time then give them the space they deserve and don't cram them in like sardines.Its not a nice way to keep c/a cichlids.

we can disagree, but it doesn't mean both methods aren't correct. 2 polar opposite approaches and both will work....I just don't think after the Dovii and RTMs she already has in huge tanks by themselves she really wants ANOTHER fish or 2 that she will have to do the same thing with.

As far as rockwork looking unnatural, I'm not sure where that's coming from, but if there's one thing that is in every body of water that supports aquatic life - it's rocks. In the wild, it's generally the very first thing fish are attracted to.....or at least some type of cover. For instance SMB prefer rocks and gravel bottom while LMB prefer weeds and heavy vegetation cover. Not giving fish cover IMO is mean and cruel and I don't even LIKE half the fishtanks I see because they don't provide fish with what they would naturally seek out in the wild. Whether it "looks" right to whomever, you still should be providing it for them by any means possible. Fish are drawn to cover, structure and anything that makes them feel secure and safe.

We think what looks nice is great because we enjoy it, but in the same manner as most lures are meant to catch fishermen, not fish......

most tanks are set-up to please the fishKEEPER and not the fish themselves.
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EDIT: and the thing about cover and structure doesn't JUST apply to fish - I have housed various reptiles who appeared bored and didn't eat much or sometimes at all and really seemed like they were just not happy at all, and then when I started adding cover - rocks, branches, caves, etc BAM!!! All of a sudden new healthier behavior was being shown.

There have even been instances where I have owned or known people who owned snakes that did not have hide-boxes for them and they would not eat and no matter what they tried, could not get them to eat......then after a hide-space was added, they IMMEDIATELY hammered down food once they felt comfortable and secure.

 

[manda4]

I have had parachromis -the Dovii pair, my male jag, Buddy & Chica - and I would not subject any other fish to their unpredictable behavior.
I want just the perfect amount of only veija family cichlids. I dont like mixing CA/SA because they are all jerks...and the CAs will kill.
Off topic a bit : I do have my fancy small pleco tank with 11 plecs total and it should not work. But everyone has several places to hide/live so..

 

[manda4]

I have had parachromis -the Dovii pair, my male jag, Buddy & Chica - and I would not subject any other fish to their unpredictable behavior.
I want just the perfect amount of only veija family cichlids. I dont like mixing CA/SA because they are all jerks...and the CAs will kill.
Off topic a bit : I do have my fancy small pleco tank with 11 plecs total and it should not work. But everyone has several places to hide/live so..

 

[Stanzzzz7]

Got nothing against rocks,cover or caves,it's when you add all the flower pots and pvc pipes with the rocks.
My tanks alway provide cover and hiding places without the need for loads of pots and plastic pipes.Its not what I imagine in a Mexican lagoon or an Amazon tributary.

 

[Frank Castle]

Got nothing against rocks,cover or caves,it's when you add all the flower pots and pvc pipes with the rocks.
My tanks alway provide cover and hiding places without the need for loads of pots and plastic pipes.Its not what I imagine in a Mexican lagoon or an Amazon tributary.

Dude, as long as the world has people who throw trash anywhere they please, and they will..........it's pretty much EXACTLY what they would use to take cover in the wild. Haven't you seen intentionally sunk artificial reefs funded by F&G, IGFA, and other gov't agencies? They sink cars and retired Military vehicles into the ocean after proper cleaning procedures because just like Shipwrecks they attract COUNTLESS fish and provide cover and safety.

Get out and go fishing in various places and you will see this hobby from a totally new standpoint.

 

[Stanzzzz7]

I want just the perfect amount of only veija family cichlids. [/QUOTE]
Good luck with this.I have kept many veija species over the years and I have yet to have them work with other veija for the long haul.
It works for so long and then the bullying starts.
Great in pairs and with smaller cichlids in big tanks,but trouble with their own kind and closely related species.