Have you had any issues with snout deformation? Seems like these would have a more delicate upper jaw than most..
Lima versus elongatus ID thread
- Thread starter thebiggerthebetter
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Yes, this common problem hasn't bypassed me. I try not catching them with my usual nets because their pectoral fin spines get stuck in them badly. So I use my wife's plastic kitchen strainer. Doing it like that is clumsy and gives them more opportunity to injure their upper jaw by running into a wall, what not. They dart when one is trying to catch them.
3 or 4 of them have some degree of upper jaw deformity.
Here are some pics of the three larger Sorubim I own that I took a few weeks ago. Based on how long I've had some of them and the size they've reached I would assume they are all elongatus. I also took pictures of the barbels and to my mostly untrained eyes they seem to be Elongatus to me. The largest one in the attached pic I've owned for 6 years now and was about 10" SL when I got it, I've had a smaller one that is at about 11" SL for 3 years now and the fish with the large growth on its jaw (a testament to how fragile their snouts can be) I picked up a month ago from a gentleman who had owned it for about 5 years I believe, it is about 12" SL.
Welcome to the MFK!
Thanks for the post and for the photos. Have you photographed the ventral sides of their heads in a hope to confirm the elongatus versus lima ID? I can't say one way or the other off the top of my head. I need to reread the alleged barbel position vs species assignment.
Yeah, that's one nasty growth it's got. Probably from an injury that got infected or many serious injuries in the same spot.
I see the catfish managed to draw your blood. I too almost invariably get poked when working with them. And it hurts for a long time!
Thanks for the post and for the photos. Have you photographed the ventral sides of their heads in a hope to confirm the elongatus versus lima ID? I can't say one way or the other off the top of my head. I need to reread the alleged barbel position vs species assignment.
Yeah, that's one nasty growth it's got. Probably from an injury that got infected or many serious injuries in the same spot.
I see the catfish managed to draw your blood. I too almost invariably get poked when working with them. And it hurts for a long time!
I definitely need to snap more photos, this latest batch of pictures was more for me to take pictures of the genital pores of these and some of my other larger catfish, in order those should be my largest, smallest, and busted snout.
The blood in that particular photo isn't actually mine, to my horror as the irregular snout fish wiggled about, it actually reared back and stabbed itself right above the anal fin with its own pectoral! Fortunately it is full healed and doing well. I will have to move them again soon, I will have to try to take more meristically useful photos next go around.
A relevant thread with input from CLauf and K. D. Breed (the latter by citation from YouTube exchange). https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/if-lima-catfish.698008/page-2#post-7866299
Been a year now. An update video on the 18-pack. About half of these exceeded 12" significantly and reached ~16", might even be 18".
I think this shatters my hypothesis that all we get in the US are elongatus but we'll cross this bridge when we will have got to 24", hopefully and if God's willing.
The 2-pack of the youngsters has been growing as usual, about 7"-8" now.
Video of the tank with the 18 LSN:
I think this shatters my hypothesis that all we get in the US are elongatus but we'll cross this bridge when we will have got to 24", hopefully and if God's willing.
The 2-pack of the youngsters has been growing as usual, about 7"-8" now.
Video of the tank with the 18 LSN:
Great thread!!!!
I am often accused of taking things way too simplistic but if you asked me what you had in your tank I would say , 18 s.lima. The fish i know to be elongatus doesn't have the same colouration. Yes I know, colour does not define the type. But what often does is cutting a fish open and finding differences. But as hobbyists we can't and don't do that. So we revert to what the clever scientists think. And, as it turns out, some of the time they don't know either. They catch the same fish in different rivers and describe it as a new type. As we know, humans existed on different continents but after time were all known as the same - just humans.
I bought s.lima probably four years ago. Here in UK they are £40 a fish, so a group is hard to get. The one i have is in the pond, looks like your group, always has, but is now approaching 20" . I still think he's s lima because he's not spotted in any way, has solid unbroken dark stripes only.
If someone can convince the world of true variants, then I want to see the pictures - then I'll change my mind ( like I say, I think too simplistcally) , and of course I would need Julian to change his pictures to match!
I still think, if your shovelnose were in one of your 4500 by themselves in a year or so you would have 18 x 18-24" soribum. But you will still be asking what they are!
And I will still say s. lima.
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One thing I am absolutely amazed by though in the vids is the lack of growth of the black shark and his seemingly placid nature. In that setup mine would have achieved 18" in that timeframe and just would not stop chasing everything else round the tank, hence when you said in an earlier post that they shed a lot, I wondered if that was because of the black shark, but you're just seems way too placid to be the cause.
I am often accused of taking things way too simplistic but if you asked me what you had in your tank I would say , 18 s.lima. The fish i know to be elongatus doesn't have the same colouration. Yes I know, colour does not define the type. But what often does is cutting a fish open and finding differences. But as hobbyists we can't and don't do that. So we revert to what the clever scientists think. And, as it turns out, some of the time they don't know either. They catch the same fish in different rivers and describe it as a new type. As we know, humans existed on different continents but after time were all known as the same - just humans.
I bought s.lima probably four years ago. Here in UK they are £40 a fish, so a group is hard to get. The one i have is in the pond, looks like your group, always has, but is now approaching 20" . I still think he's s lima because he's not spotted in any way, has solid unbroken dark stripes only.
If someone can convince the world of true variants, then I want to see the pictures - then I'll change my mind ( like I say, I think too simplistcally) , and of course I would need Julian to change his pictures to match!
I still think, if your shovelnose were in one of your 4500 by themselves in a year or so you would have 18 x 18-24" soribum. But you will still be asking what they are!
And I will still say s. lima.
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One thing I am absolutely amazed by though in the vids is the lack of growth of the black shark and his seemingly placid nature. In that setup mine would have achieved 18" in that timeframe and just would not stop chasing everything else round the tank, hence when you said in an earlier post that they shed a lot, I wondered if that was because of the black shark, but you're just seems way too placid to be the cause.
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Thanks,
Fishman Dave
!
The simplicity in analyses is good. So is the complexity. The reasonable medium is probably the best.
As stated in the latest revision of the genus, elongatus differs from lima only by the position of the mandibular barbels with respect to the gular point, speaking of external differences.
But the science of taxonomy is just like any other science. All sciences always evolve. It is the current state of understanding and the current model that describes the state of things the best, doesn't mean it answers all questions or is ideal or can't be challenged or it will never change.
Plus there is a "human factor" with all its advantages and deficiencies. You should know what I am talking about. I know as a scientist I cheated a bit several times in my 20-year career to get the result I wanted. Pretty ashamed of it now.
I think all the humans are the same species Homo sapiens because there used to be one continent and it broke up and the currently known continents drifted away from each other not before but after humankind has spread all over it. But this, I fear, is a question of faith, as the science won't answer it definitively, in our lifetime anyway.
Man, fish are markedly more expensive in the UK versus the USA! Our usual LSN are $10-$20.
If mine were 18"-24", I'd not be asking what they are, lima or elongatus. I apologize if I muddled it up... albeit I think I was trying to be as clear as I could be. Still, thanks for the poke!
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The black shark is 4 years old and is around 15"-16" tip to tip, not a far cry from the 18" you are mentioning. It's the lone survivor of a 3-pack and has its own honorary thread The shark has gone through several 240 gal tanks before landing in this one. Perhaps it is more on the temperate side. I see it give some fish a chase every now and then but not all, only certain, and not often that rehoming would be warranted.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...-chrysophekadion-1-for-3-10-presently.696697/
I saw your black shark in the 1500 gal pond. It looks gorgeous and quite large. If you wanna go on "sharking", it'd be best suited for the thread above or your thread
Fishman Dave
!The simplicity in analyses is good. So is the complexity. The reasonable medium is probably the best.
As stated in the latest revision of the genus, elongatus differs from lima only by the position of the mandibular barbels with respect to the gular point, speaking of external differences.
But the science of taxonomy is just like any other science. All sciences always evolve. It is the current state of understanding and the current model that describes the state of things the best, doesn't mean it answers all questions or is ideal or can't be challenged or it will never change.
Plus there is a "human factor" with all its advantages and deficiencies. You should know what I am talking about. I know as a scientist I cheated a bit several times in my 20-year career to get the result I wanted. Pretty ashamed of it now.
I think all the humans are the same species Homo sapiens because there used to be one continent and it broke up and the currently known continents drifted away from each other not before but after humankind has spread all over it. But this, I fear, is a question of faith, as the science won't answer it definitively, in our lifetime anyway.
Man, fish are markedly more expensive in the UK versus the USA! Our usual LSN are $10-$20.
If mine were 18"-24", I'd not be asking what they are, lima or elongatus. I apologize if I muddled it up... albeit I think I was trying to be as clear as I could be. Still, thanks for the poke!
****************************
The black shark is 4 years old and is around 15"-16" tip to tip, not a far cry from the 18" you are mentioning. It's the lone survivor of a 3-pack and has its own honorary thread
The shark has gone through several 240 gal tanks before landing in this one. Perhaps it is more on the temperate side. I see it give some fish a chase every now and then but not all, only certain, and not often that rehoming would be warranted.https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...-chrysophekadion-1-for-3-10-presently.696697/
I saw your black shark in the 1500 gal pond. It looks gorgeous and quite large. If you wanna go on "sharking", it'd be best suited for the thread above or your thread
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