Are you doing it right? GRENADE :-))

do you agree?

  • to hell with you old timer

    Votes: 22 20.2%
  • this actually makes sense

    Votes: 87 79.8%

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RD.

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Here is a vid of his 600 gallon. The smaller tropical fish were later removed, or eaten before he had a chance.
These were all young pups when initially imported from Mark Huveneers. I don't see any degradation in pattern, or overall health?


 

DB junkie

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This is not heading in the direction I planned.... lol.

Lemme clear up a few things..... I KNOW there have beeen several hobbyists up north that have had very nice rays producing for them. Hell I went through the trouble to get Binox up there for Scott's Xingu. I know he and Rudy have had and produced very nice rays. Please don't take what I said the wrong way.

The rays in particular I'm referring to are Marbled Motoros. They are the rays I speak of when referring to pattern degregation. As they age they darken. I know of a few keepers that have Marbles that look as though they ate plutonium - they glow. Neon orange, vibrant very crisp colored. I've bought rays like this several times. Only takes a few months in hard water and they look terrible compared to what they did in the past.

I've kept several species in my hard water over the years and no other species seemed to be affected as bad as Marbles. Blackies I honestly don't see much change regardless of the water.

When I mentioned centerfold rays - I should have been more specific. Does anyone up there have Marbles that look like Richards (Aquaman45) being kept in hard water? When I had bright Marbles like that they darkened quickly in hard water. I've watched my Marbles change from bright to dark and it seems to me that they seem to be getting brighter with the softer water I now make.

Been an arguement for decades wether its husbandry or genes responsible for this degregation..... Maybe I'm wrong and it has nothing to do with water, but seemed like an awful big somewhat reproduceable coinky dink.....
 
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RD.

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The rays in particular I'm referring to are Marbled Motoros.
So now we are just down to one specific species? Ok, that's a different story, one that I would make no assumptions about. My best guess would be similar to why one species of eartheater will come down with HITH when kept in harder water with higher pH values, while others within the same genus do not. Some species are clearly more sensitive than others, no argument there. I also agree with DavidW's temperature rant, overall I also believe that many hobbyists keep their water too warm, and that warm water invites an increase in the growth of pathogenic bacteria.

But if we are going to be specific, then we should be specific, not generalize as though all rays require soft water in order to thrive in captivity. They clearly do not. No more than a clown loach captured in a black water district of Kalimantan. Different fish have different ideal ranges, and as noted in the link above SA river systems can vary immensely from one end of the system, to the other.
 
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DB junkie

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Is 8.0 PH hard? Or is 9.0?

HOW "hard" does the water have to be before a hobbyist should intervene?

Someone like me might consider 8.0 soft..... ;)

What is the water there like for TDS/Conductivity????

Just cause patterns don't degregate doesn't necessarly mean they are "fine" in my opinion..... I thought we all agreed that closer to natural is better? Is there water up in the 8-9 range running through the Amazon? I know there's PH around 5 and the rays seem fine in it....
 

RD.

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I have no intention of going round & round with you or anyone else. Feel free to keep your fish as you please, you are certainly welcome to your opinions.
 

DB junkie

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Do opinions end with question marks? I'm asking questions.... I'm NO expert, but do enjoy reading advice from experts.

I thought this was supposed to be a collective group effort for us all to understand how to better keep our rays?

I'm not convinced that PH really means much to rays. The numbers that concern me are conductivity/TDS. Maybe that's where I'm all wrong???? I'm under the impression this is where the shock to the fish/killing of bactria happens, not so much the PH???
 

jeffers

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I had the same issue with my marble great for a while but slowly got darker. my water is very hard as well. also for some reason I cant keep a hystrix alive to save my life. tried pups and adults. I could keep a retic alive from when I first started but never a hystrix. a shame as I really like them.

as far as tds/conductivity i really need to change my probe. it is not taking to the recalibration. alerts and probes are nice to have when away or even when home. i would really like to get the Dissolved oxygen sensor soon as well.
 
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Matteus

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Do opinions end with question marks? I'm asking questions.... I'm NO expert, but do enjoy reading advice from experts.

I thought this was supposed to be a collective group effort for us all to understand how to better keep our rays?

I'm not convinced that PH really means much to rays. The numbers that concern me are conductivity/TDS. Maybe that's where I'm all wrong???? I'm under the impression this is where the shock to the fish/killing of bactria happens, not so much the PH???
I know in my city out of tap we are 8-8.2 ph and typically 250ppm tds. And all the ray keepers in my area say the same thing, not to intervene. I think you are on a different playing field all together though.
I also like to learn from the experts and more experienced keepers- even if they are not experts they are 2-10 steps ahead of me so I will watch what works, or sometimes not.
 
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DB junkie

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I had troubles finding any equipment or test kits that would measure high PH. When I had a water analysis done at the local pool/spa place I just got 8.6+ meaning higher then they could test. Most of the test kits would just show the color at the end of the scale. My tank measurements on drip fed tanks were always significantly higher then what came out of the tap, despite dripping several hundred gallons a day. The rays lived in this and they bred in it, but them dang Marbles just never seemed like they did anything but darken. Since they are a favorite species I choose to try to do something about it. IF they benefit why wouldn't other species? Could they be the ray worlds version of the canary in the coal mine in terms of water???? I've never seen any other species loose/gain patterns like Marbles do.

IF In had those kind of readings and could run year after year without losses I might consider just running it. My issues more then the hard numbers were the bi yearly die offs that I seem to have avoided by ditching the tap. Really think its something that isn't tested for. IF I had to guess it would be something related to the jacked up amount of human cancer cases in our region, something that would likely lead back to field chemicals. I sent over a half dozen rays in for necropsy at a university and the last 4 came back "environmental" which means they assume stress as they found no disease nor could they give me an exact COD.

What do most keepers do when the bomb drops, the shibby gets real, the hell breaks loose - most turn to RO. When you watch half your collection die, the amount of money lost becomes sickening really fast. Do people have backup plans? Do they know what they are gonna do when a mass die off is on the horizon? A new species is found, a must have that runs $7K/pr they go off food, water is "good" other rays are fine, what next? Same thing importers do to minimize losses?

Here's the thing with water intervention - how many have actually tried it? I know of several instances where some very experienced keepers turned to RO and never looked back. Have not heard of many instances where someone tried messing with the water and went back to straight ol whatever falls out of the tap cause RO results were not there. Most don't go back. Maybe it's the pain in the ass factor???? I can assure you it's no fun setting up a system like this, but it sure as hell isn't fun paying electric bills that are hundreds of dollars more then stupid every month, nor is it fun funding the food that gets tossed in tanks by the fistful but at the end of the day we do a lot of stupid things for rays, but obviously we think its worth it cause we keep going.

Sure would be nice if someone could design us a filter to strip MOST of the stuff out of the water instead of all, RO sucks in the fact that so much water is wasted, but I have yet to find any other option then cutting RO with tap, so you're just stripping everything out then adding a little back in, but it's the waste water ratio that's rediculous.......

And finally..... On that subject of more bling..... Times have changed folks. Used to see bling everywhere, them big fat wheels all shiney.... What do I see now? People paying to have thier bling powdercoated black. You guys seeing the same? Is the bling era gone?
 

RD.

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Really think its something that isn't tested for. IF I had to guess it would be something related to the jacked up amount of human cancer cases in our region, something that would likely lead back to field chemicals.
Sounds to me like you have piss poor tap water, I feel your pain, and no doubt that in your case RO water would be far more ideal, than exposing your fish to who knows what. Could be hazardous chemicals from farm runoff, heavy metals from lead pipes, bursts of high levels of disinfectant, who knows?



I only know my water, and what several decades of fishkeeping has taught myself & others in this area. My water comes from the same mountain range as Matt's, and short of a distribution line catastrophe. or repair, is generally very stable, and very safe, for a very wide range of fish, including stingrays. That doesn't mean that for some of the more uber sensitive species one can't tweak the water with peat/cattapa leaves/oak leaves/etc, or use RO, but by and large the vast majority of fish, including rays, do very well with what comes out of our taps. If a bomb was constantly being dropped, no doubt folks in this area would reconsider.
 
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