180 degree switch in fish food: lost too many show fish, need better food

[thebiggerthebetter]

So I had been suffering and finally have completed an experience-based, 180 degree change of heart with respect to what I feed my fish. Not overnight but over the last year or so, little by little. Being arrogant, stupid, and stubborn, I had to learn from my own experience.

Although I listened to what others and most notably RD. had said about the proper fish nutrition for years and thought it must have been right, I yet continued in my own ways for many years, I guess, thinking how bad can cheap fish food be?

Well, the conclusion is: it is bad enough that I feel I am done with it and the savings are not worth it… even based on financial considerations, which may seem counterintuitive but the main reason behind the change involves fish losses, I mean losses of large, show-size adult fish, which took me many years to raise, to unknown reasons one of which could surely be a poor long-term diet. Saving money on fish food cuts the lifespan of many fish IME by 2x to 10x to more, not to mention an overall poorer health and weaker immune system and, hence, more headache, time, and money spent on treatment and medications.

...

In the following list of fish we have lost, not all of them probably died directly from poor diet yet the diet still carries some blame in my best judgment:

- two azul pbass, 24”, four Orinoco pbass, 18”-24”, ocellaris pbass w/c in Suriname, 24”, farmed pbass, 24”, all died of natural-looking causes at ~5 years old (the farmie was ~3 years old), ate almost exclusively thawed wholesome marine baitfish, I suspect some nutrient deficiency has developed over time;

- three spiny eels, black spot and tiretrack, 18”-30”, all died of natural-looking causes at ~5 years old, ate almost exclusively Zeigler aquaculture pellets, I suspect fat deposition around internal organs and general gastrointestinal degradation developed over time;

- a few dozen of koi, 12”-30”, 10-15 years old, ate Ziegler pellets, died from an unidentified internal illness sometimes accompanied by large intestinal tumors, I suspect fat deposition around internal organs;

- carpintis / green texas cichlid, 5 years old, 12”, ate almost exclusively Ziegler pellets, developed exceedingly distended stomach area;

- two Vieja melanura synspillum, 14”, 5 and 6 years old, Ziegler pellets, greatly distended tummy;

- two TSN catfish, 24” & 34”, one died at 5 years old, the other at 7 years old, both early in life ate whole marine bait fish, later switching to mostly Ziegler pellets, I suspect fattening of the internal organs;

- TSN x achara hybrid catfish, 30”, 7 years old, Ziegler pellets;

- TSNxRTC hybrid catfish, 36”, 7 years old, mostly Ziegler pellets;

- four sun catfish, 15”-17”, 5 years old, mostly on Ziegler pellets, developed exceedingly distended stomach area, 90% of the inside of the cavity was occupied by fat;

- a few bala sharks, 12”, 5 years old or so, mostly on Ziegler pellets;

- two gulper catfish, 8”, 3 years old, on whole marine bait fish, I suspect a bad nutrient deficiency had developed;

- umbee cichlid, 18”, 4 years old, Ziegler pellets;

- four apurensis catfish 18”-23”, 3 years old, whole marine bait fish;

- four brown bullhead, 12”-14”, 3 years old, Ziegler pellets;

- two bolt catfish, 17”, 3 years old, Ziegler pellets and whole marine bait fish;

- two west African lungfish, 30”-40”, Ziegler pellets;

- barramundi, 36”, 4 years old, whole marine bait fish;

- Nile perch, 24”, 2 years old, whole marine fish;

- two indian grey eel-tail catfish, 30”, 4 years old, Ziegler pellets and whole marine bait fish;

- Pterodoras granulosus catfish, 30”, 5 years old, Ziegler pellets;

- Asian RTC, 34”, 5 years old, Ziegler pellets and sometimes whole marine fish.

The photos and final measurements of these fish can be seen in this thread -- https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/posts/7754696 -- and all details can be found in our threads dedicated to these fish in the respective subforums.

I am not stating that all these fish died directly from the poor diet but I guess at least half of them have died directly because of it and in others it was a crucial factor of two or more factors.

...

Fixing the whole marine bait fish part has been rather easy for me. I just pre soak them in VitaChem now.

Fixing the pellet part is where I need guidance and help. I have already asked one question toward this goal here: https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/...ir-ingredient-pellet-lists-be-trusted.728018/

I had stopped feeding the $1/lb Ziegler pellets altogether and have been feeding the $10-$12/lb NLS exclusively for the last couple of months. This has increased our pellet cost by about 5x (10x more expensive pellets but I can use 2x less of it). Thus, we have gone from ~$80 a month to $400 a month spent on pellets.

Now I am prepared to pay that much for the new pellets, no problem, I’d much rather treat our fish the best I can and calm my conscience, which had not been entirely calm about feeding cheapo pellets for many years.

[1] But RD. says this is an overkill for the f/w fish (it’d be adequate for the much more demanding and touchy marine fish in his opinion). [2] Moreover, as you can see from that other thread I linked discussing the Aquatic Foods and Blackworm Co. (AFBC) pellets, if I could get away with as low as $4/lb and it would still be deemed adequate by experts, then why not? I don’t want to throw money away either. We work hard to make it. It doesn’t fall from the sky on us.

As you can see too from the AFBC thread, RD. also advises me to approach a manufacturer directly and see if I could buy the pellets in bulk from them omitting the middle men. Can this be done with the NLS? Also, I thought I first should zero in on 1, 2, or 3 manufacturers and then consider approaching them. As you can see our volumes are not that great at all, we are a tiny place for a Public Aquarium, really. A few hundred $ a month I am dubious would entice any manufacturer into a collaboration, except maybe advertising but we are not even yet open for business to public at large.

...

I will attach below the ingredient lists of our former staple Ziegler pellets and of the new NLS pellets. The ingredient lists of three types of exemplary AFBC pellets can be found in the thread I linked.

I don’t see how Hikari is any better. From the ingredient list alone it looks inferior to the NLS and it is as expensive or more expensive.

Hikari Cichlid Gold is a bit more than $9/lb in bulk.

Hikari Cichlid Excel is $13/lb.

Hikari Massivore is of course even more expensive at $25/lb in bulk.

Finally, about 1/2 of all pellets goes to our koi and carp. Is the primarily cichlid-targeted NLS pellet good for them (not algae max but more of generic, middle of the way pellet)? Is it reasonable financially to feed koi, mahseer, and Co. with them? Perhaps someone could advise me on what koi/carp pellets would be the best in, first, the quality and, second, the price.

Ideally, it’d be good to stay with one pellet fits all, or at least with two kinds – for koi and carp and for everyone else, which are primarily carnivore and omnivore.

 

[BichirKing]

sorry to hear about your loss. I don't have anything to add but my sympathy. other than this I hope you're doing well.

 

[Yellowcat]

Hey Viktor, sorry to see you losing so many fish and so many kinds of them. Even worse I know is that you likely knew them well and their individual personalities over time and i'm sure became quite fond of so many of them. We all hate losing them and not always knowing why adds to the frustration and sense of loss.
I can offer suggestions you've probably already investigated but it can't hurt , I reckon. About sourcing quality food in bulk is the problem obviously but what comes to mind is places that may supply large quantities of food such a those to cater to commercial fish operations like the channel cat industry in places like in Mississippi. Those blessed in having private fishing lakes and ponds or pay fishing lakes for bass, sunfish and catfish manage their fisheries by artificially using automatic feeders to supplement their fishes diets thus needing bulk food. Pond management sites likely have links to fish food vendors. Aside from supporting my LFS I also get foods from Ken's Fish, the usual Hikari pellets and stuff bet they also carry their own brands of a veriety of pellets like blood worm, earthworm and general catfish, bottom feeder, algae and other flavors. Perhaps deals could be made for larger quantities from such suppliers. I know that some commercial fish farms used to use Purina Catfish Chow that came in 50lb. bags for example. Even catfish can be picky not to mention all the species you keep but perhaps one source or another may help in supplying more affordable yet healthy nutrition for some of your residents. Maximum respect for your intentions and priorities..

 

[kendragon]

thebiggerthebetter I know you knew of the problem in 2018 in your 4 apurensis thread. I even concurred with you back then.
RD gave you good advice about seeking manufacturer's support. You should do the same for other products like an UV. You need sponsors for all you do.

 

[RD.]

As you can see too from the AFBC thread, RD. also advises me to approach a manufacturer directly and see if I could buy the pellets in bulk from them omitting the middle men.

I suggested that you approach a feed mill, not a manufacturer with their own brand. I mean you can approach & ask anyone that you want, but your best bet would be to approach a mill that makes food for others, which is what people selling on eBay etc have done. They aren't making their own formulas. See what the min amount would be, and how much to make say 1,000 pounds of a decent formula, with quality ingredients.

Ideally, it’d be good to stay with one pellet fits all, or at least with two kinds – for koi and carp and for everyone else, which are primarily carnivore and omnivore.

I agree, the carp can do better with higher levels of carbs, terrestrial plant matter, such as wheat, soybean, etc.
By design they can handle higher levels, than most other species. They also require higher levels of vitamin E, which is why many koi formulas have wheat germ in them. Most mills would be aware of all of this, and should supplement accordingly. There should be lots of generic koi foods that won't break the bank, but again, like everything else you get what you pay for. New Life also make a Koi formula, or at least used to.

Pond food is typically designed for pond fish, that are typically raised to be eaten. Fatty livers is a non issue.
This is the issue with most generic pond foods, such as the Zeigler formula that you were using. Most people that feed those types of food aren't counting how old their fish are. They are just a fish.

And speaking of fatty liver disease, I see another issue in some of your tanks, and that is a community mix of species that would never feed together in nature. Bottom feeders with aggressive top and mid level feeders. I suspect this was part of the issue with your extremely obese carpintis. Whilst ensuring that the bottom feeders get their share, more aggro feeders were eating far more than their fair share. The end result is obesity, due to operator error, as much or more than poor quality feed. I see this a lot in community tanks, when fish are forced to live in a confined space.

So my advice is the same as before, I don't think that your fish need top shelf foods, but you would be wise to avoid the lower tier as well, such as those that have wheat middlings as the first ingredient on the label.

Good luck.

 

[koltsixx]

I wish I could be of some assistance but honestly I often read Neils threads when it comes to fish food and have enjoyed all the info. I can glean from them. I just do what I can to keep my fish diet as varied as possible, switching between frozen, freeze dried, pellets and fresh spirulina. I also fast my fish but I also only have two fish that have made it to 13 years old and are still kicking. I either rehome my fish as my tastes change or have tried comm's that honestly where ill advised and that's usually the cause of most of my fish deaths. Something that I've been trying to change in myself for awhile now.

We all are subject to being vain at times and blinded by it. We are only human. The most important thing is that when we do fall we pick ourselves up and learn from it. We live, we grow and hopefully we evolve. And you my friend have always been humble enough to be open to growing. As such I know you'll always find a way to be a better fishkeeper as time goes by.

I agree with Kendragon too. You should see about talking to some manufacturer's about them possibly sponsoring you. As Ken said, you definitely deserve it for all that you do.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Can't thank you all enough.

... what comes to mind is places that may supply large quantities of food such a those to cater to commercial fish operations like the channel cat industry in places like in Mississippi. Those blessed in having private fishing lakes and ponds or pay fishing lakes for bass, sunfish and catfish manage their fisheries by artificially using automatic feeders to supplement their fishes diets thus needing bulk food. Pond management sites likely have links to fish food vendors.

Those Zeigler Bros pellet I cited above are precisely that - bulk pond and/or aquaculture feed. Come in 44 lb bags at $1/lb shipped to my door. If one picks up from their site in Pennsylvania, it would be 50 cent/lb.

I find the stuff indeed works, the manufacturers got it down pretty good. Fish, even the choosy ones like ATF, pbass, Brachyplatystoma, learn to take it well. They grow well on it and reach large sizes in proper time. It's just the fish don't last on these pellets (and on the relatively very minor side, the excrementation is strong too resulting in more frequent filter cleanings). Just as RD. has eloquently articulated the fish that these pellets are meant for are either harvested in teenage-subadult years (like the channel catfish's marketable size of 18") or they die prematurely in large natural lakes and no one even knows or cares that the circle of life is sped up by 2x-10x.

... I also get foods from Ken's Fish, the usual Hikari pellets and stuff but they also carry their own brands of a variety of pellets like bloodworm, earthworm and general catfish, bottom feeder, algae and other flavors.

Thank you. Will look into it. Heard of Ken's brand for many years and once studied the labels but many years ago.

I know you knew of the problem in 2018 in your 4 apurensis thread. I even concurred with you back then.

Yes, you have. I remember. The apus were suffering from eating an unsupplemented diet of whole marine bait fish their entire life. Then you kindly proceeded to calculate out what UV system I'd need for my 23,000 gal / 40,000 GPH system.

... RD gave you good advice about seeking manufacturer's support. You should do the same for other products like an UV. You need sponsors for all you do.

Thank you. Scroll to the bottom, please.

I suggested that you approach a feed mill, not a manufacturer with their own brand. I mean you can approach & ask anyone that you want, but your best bet would be to approach a mill that makes food for others, which is what people selling on eBay etc have done. They aren't making their own formulas. See what the min amount would be, and how much to make say 1,000 pounds of a decent formula, with quality ingredients.

Oh, I see. The difference hadn't registered. Sorry. Zeigler is a huge miller. Perhaps I could ask them if they mill anything of medium-to-high quality? You are right, the pellet I was using is of the lowest tier.

I need fresh. I can't store 1000 lbs... unless you mean that this quantity can be bought in several purchases spread over time. Small details. Sorry.

... I agree, the carp can do better with higher levels of carbs, terrestrial plant matter, such as wheat, soybean, etc. By design they can handle higher levels, than most other species. They also require higher levels of vitamin E, which is why many koi formulas have wheat germ in them. Most mills would be aware of all of this, and should supplement accordingly. There should be lots of generic koi foods that won't break the bank, but again, like everything else you get what you pay for. New Life also make a Koi formula, or at least used to.

I didn't know about the vitamin E and wheat germ. Appreciate the knowledge. Will fetch koi food candidats for your royal review then.

And speaking of fatty liver disease, I see another issue in some of your tanks, and that is a community mix of species that would never feed together in nature. Bottom feeders with aggressive top and mid level feeders. I suspect this was part of the issue with your extremely obese carpintis. Whilst ensuring that the bottom feeders get their share, more aggro feeders were eating far more than their fair share. The end result is obesity, due to operator error, as much or more than poor quality feed. I see this a lot in community tanks, when fish are forced to live in a confined space.

Yes, overfeeding / over-offering you had cited before including the case with my ready-to-blow-up carpintis... and you have always been a proponent of feeding less, or so I have been observing through the years.

You are right, I combine so many aggressively feeding and predatory fish together that I leave no choice for myself but to feed heavy.

So my advice is the same as before, I don't think that your fish need top shelf foods, but you would be wise to avoid the lower tier as well, such as those that have wheat middlings as the first ingredient on the label.

It seems you make it a point to not name names, so I will be fetching, again, candidats for your review. I take a respectful bow to you, Sensei-san.

... I just do what I can to keep my fish diet as varied as possible, switching between frozen, freeze dried, pellets and fresh spirulina...

I used to do it too, stopped about 5 years ago. Thank you for the reminder.

... We all are subject to being vain at times and blinded by it. We are only human. The most important thing is that when we do fall we pick ourselves up and learn from it. We live, we grow and hopefully we evolve. And you my friend have always been humble enough to be open to growing. As such I know you'll always find a way to be a better fishkeeper as time goes by.

Thank you for the kind words. I gotta remind myself every day to live up to the picture of my ideal I have been painting for y'all online, haha...

... I agree with Kendragon too. You should see about talking to some manufacturer's about them possibly sponsoring you. As Ken said, you definitely deserve it for all that you do.

Thank you and Ken. Yes. But one has to have some substance behind their back. Foot traffic or internet following, a minor celebrity status, IDK... I got nothing. We are not open to public at large yet. My humble YT channel has 9,000 subs. To any manufacturer I'd be but an ambitious, mouthy hobbyist, who can't prove that he is not a mere sponge...

 

[RD.]

I agree with Viktor, no one is going to be overly excited about sponsoring his feed bill.

I need fresh. I can't store 1000 lbs... unless you mean that this quantity can be bought in several purchases spread over time. Small details. Sorry.

Ok, I see. Most mills won't be interested in making up small batches of food, some might, not sure? I suspect most would want a min of 1,000 pounds to make it worth their while, some possibly a 1 ton minimum. Ken does the same as the eBay vendor, I don't see him being a cost effective manner in which for you to feed your fish. You need to toally remove the middle man if possible. Then find a decent food, that a producer would be willing to sell directly to you.

It seems you make it a point to not name names, so I will be fetching, again, candidats for your review.

Not really on purpose, I have simply been out of the food game now for close to a decade, so beyond the LFS common brands etc I really don't have a good handle on what is out there any more. My set ups are a drop in the ocean compared to yours, so feed costs do not factor in to it for me. And I have generous friends. lol

 

[duanes]

One of the problems I perceive in how aquarists feed fish (not necessarily the OP, but in general) is they don't recognize that there are different trophic types.

All fish are not all carnivores, or piscavores, and are generically evolved enough to use the general certain nutrients, and proteins from your average pellet, but some species, need to use other intangibles in their natural diet.
Because cichlids are my thing, I will try to stay within that realm.
P-bass are highly piscavorus, so require high protein, but is all protein created equal?
Can a P-bass actually make use of grain protein, or chicken parts to a healthy advantage? Maybe, maybe not.

Herichthys (like carpintus) and a number of Central, South American, and other cichlids in general, are omnivores, with a tendency toward getting at least 50% of their diet from algae, and a large% from detritus.
So does vegetable protein from legumes, or protein from chicken parts actually fit in to those intangible ingredients?
Or do the fallen leaves in detritus have some intangible intrinsic value to their digestive tract efficiency?

Vieja once adults, are highly vegetarian, to the extent that much their diet in nature is fallen fruit and and leaves, and considered frugivores.
Although this might not fit into a normal fish food component consideration, these ingredients and the vitamins they contain may be of a more digestive tract use, and hold importance not often recognized .

And there are those cichlids that are predominantly vegetarian like Cincilchthys, or Etroplus suratensus.
Although a general algae based pellet may sustain them for a while, there may be other intrinsic values to what they eat fresh in nature that promote health.
I have watched bocourti and pearsei eat waterlogged wood in much the same manner Plecos do, and have watched bocourti reduce papyrus plants (essentially paper) to nubs.
Are papyrus and water logged wood nutrient rich? I doubt it , but do they have some intrinsic value beyond just nutrients to the digestive traits operation? The digestive tracts of these species are often twice the length of other similar sized fish
And I highly doubt they would eat it if were not of value.

Lastly, much of the aquaculture foods are made to provide accelerated growth, in a short time, so those fish can end up in the grocery store shelf quickly.
Is this accelerated growth good for a healthy long lived "show" fish? Maybe not.
Is it a good idea for us to accelerate the growth of our fish ibeyond the norm because we want them big fast, in the long run? Maybe not.

 

[Vancouver_98683]

I’m a subscriber to your channel Viktor! . Have u considered milling your own pellets with an extruder machine? Additional content(s) for your series. .