Experiment w Almond Leaves

[C. Breeze]

No I was originally from Milwaukee.

I was talking to the other fellow who apparently shares my taste in holiday travel arrangements

I know your background a bit, just from your posts. I suspect you have a fair handle on the hardness vs alkalinity vs PH issue, for instance. Hahaha

 

[FINWIN]

Another 7 days since the last leaf addition.Checked water clarity and pH before a 50 gallon water change, still colorless and pH the same at @ 8, then added the half dozen leaves picked a few days ago.

Amazing I would have thought it would tint. Maybe just fill up a test tank with leaves with just enough water to cover? I had a chunk of oak branch (with the bark) I boiled in my monster steel pot. It did turn the water dark brown after boiling an hour (but it took twenty five minutes just to simmer).

 

[duanes]

Amazing I would have thought it would tint. Maybe just fill up a test tank with leaves with just enough water to cover? I had a chunk of oak branch (with the bark) I boiled in my monster steel pot. It did turn the water dark brown after boiling an hour (but it took twenty five minutes just to simmer).

What I'm trying to do is get an idea of how many almond leaves it might take before any change in color or in pH is noticed at all.
I realize, that if I put a bushel or two of leaves in the tank, it would probably happen like that.
There seems to be a lot of anecdotal ideas floating around about how "almond leaves" are the black water panacea, that they will alter pH, and people may be buying them, thinking this or that will absolutely happen.
By my doing it gradually, we my find out ( maybe not) if, or how much it will take in my average size 100-200 gal tank, with pH 8 water to do the job.
This may give an idea if its worth the trouble for someone who is mildly interested.
Since nothing has happened as of yet though, I may double up on on adding more, so as not to become boring.
It may be, to get a decent black water tint, I may need a bushel, or constant 3" layer of leaves covering the entire substrate.
This may or may not be what many aquarists think of, as an aesthetically type decor, and want to do to their tank.

There is some new research showing tannins are a normal and important part of most tropical species health.
For black water species this seems obvious, but the advantage for non-black water species may also be important.

 

[FINWIN]

What I'm trying to do is get an idea of how many almond leaves it might take before any change in color or in pH is noticed at all.
I realize, that if I put a bushel or two of leaves in the tank, it would probably happen like that.
There seems to be a lot of anecdotal ideas floating around about how "almond leaves" are the black water panacea, that they will alter pH, and people may be buying them, thinking this or that will absolutely happen.
By my doing it gradually, we my find out ( maybe not) if, or how much it will take in my average size 100-200 gal tank, with pH 8 water to do the job.
This may give an idea if its worth the trouble for someone who is mildly interested.
Since nothing has happened as of yet though, I may double up on on adding more, so as not to become boring.
It may be, to get a decent black water tint, I may need a bushel, or constant 3" layer of leaves covering the entire substrate.
This may or may not be what many aquarists think of, as an aesthetically type decor, and want to do to their tank.

There is some new research showing tannins are a normal and important part of most tropical species health.
For black water species this seems obvious, but the advantage for non-black water species may also be important.

I'm interested in this because I remember posting a question about this awhile back...I had considered a leaf litter bottom. But my concern would be the type of fish I have...leaves with 'logs' would turn into a cleaning circus.

 

[jjohnwm]

I guess in one respect it isn't altogether surprising that you are not seeing significant measurable results. I know that your water change schedule is pretty intense; you change a lot of water and by doing so you manage to keep your nitrates much lower than most aquarists are willing to do. So, your philosophy of water-quality management is designed to minimize the effects of anything that adds chemical elements to the tank, simply by diluting these elements with constant changes of water.

So, now you are conducting an experiment to see how many almond leaves can add enough tannin to the water to colour it and lower its pH. But you are minimizing this added element the same way, by constant and extreme dilution. Huge additions of tannin will still be pretty quickly diluted to very low concentrations by water changes.

The significant number of aquarists who seem to change only a fraction of the percentage of water that you do will see the results you are seeking much more quickly simply because they aren't doing the work to keep their water as clean as you do.

 

[esoxlucius]

Am I missing something so obvious here that I need slapping about the face?

Don't these leaves, whichever type they are, break down in the aquarium over time and just end up finding their way into your mechanical filtration, meaning that you are always "topping" up the level of leaves in your tank? Also, as already alluded to, the look they give is not to everyone's liking, especially if you have power heads that blow them all over the place.

Can the dark water look and tannin benefits not be achieved by using a used decaffeinated tea bag? Tucked away out of sight in a sump for example. Would this not give you exactly what the loose leaves would give you, minus the messy tank look? Even if a full teabag was way too overpowering you could decrease the level easily until you hit the sweet spot.

 

[duanes]

I believe most conscientious aquarists do significant water changes, and as a result will need to constantly replenish leaves if a certain tint is wanted.
Its because Almond leaves seem to be the new darling of today, the latest fad, is why I started this trial run (and that they are available to me on the street.
In the 80s, we used sphagnum peat moss.
When in the states later on, I tried any number of leaf species.
Because different leaves break down at different rates, this may be a factor.
I found in the states local magnolia leaf held up better than maple or even oak.
Magnolia in the 2 pics below


One of the properties of Almond leaves is they are quite leathery, and may break down more slowly, I am also watching to compare.
Early on in the thread TwoTankAmin mentioned using Rooibos as a more effective tannin stain, and it may be a less detritus causing alternative, so if its available in Panama, I may add it to the almond leaves later on, if I continue to geta lack of action from the almond leaves, but will give the experiment a bit more time before jumping the gun.

 

[duanes]

An interesting wrench in my experiment.
I've noticed all the almond leaves have been disappearing, without leaving anyfrasse, or any extra detritus laying around on the substrate.
It appears both the Panamanian Pleco, and maybe even the Andinoacara have taken to eating them as fast as they are added.

 

[duanes]

A tropical gale hit Taboga yesterday, and rained for about 4 hours.
I took walk close to the almond trees after the storm, and picked up over a dozen leaves, still floating this morning, I will watch little closer to see how they are disappearing.
Along with the leaf collecting the storm filled my rain barrel, so for todays water change, instead of tap water, I used 3/4 of rain barrels volume.
I have been impressed with a couple Sicce pumps I had acquired after my normal pump died in a power surge, especially how quiet they run.
So I ordered a utility pump to aid in using rain water for water changes this time of year.
The new pump worked well, and it took less than 5 minutes to refill the tank, after my drip to waste system reduce the tank and sump system volume by about 30%.
Here is the pump.

In the barrel

Checked pH after the rain water change, still pH 8.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Never lived in GA. I was living in Fairfax, VA. when I did the Panama trip. By then I had spent a summer miving in Bogota, Colombia. I was participating in a student exchange program and I lived with a Colombian family and attended classes to learn Spanish at the University of the Andes. Which was before I lived/worked for a year and a half working in Saudi Arabia. Since then I have lived in NY in (or less than an hour from) Manhattan.

The New Years Eve party I was at in Panama City was in that old multi-story wooden horel. Every floor was its own party with a band. The whole building was shaking.

Pumps are your friend I have tanks spread out over two buildings and 4 rooms. They range from 5.5 to 150 gals. All are refilled using pumped water through drinking water grade hoses. Tanks 30 gals. and up are often pumped out after the buckets of tank water for rinsing media are done and much more water must be removed. Big tanks getemptied out windows or down toilets using different hoses and pumps.