Vegan /vegetarian fish food

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T thiswasgone here is some recent literature suggesting exactly what you are saying is disingenuous ie pandas being carnivores surviving as herbivores:


And sourced from that same article, some literature suggesting the opposite of what you said earlier ie pandas are an evolutionary dead end:


Sorry if this is too "red herring" for you. (Ha!)

As for your article, this is the equivalent of a US institution attempting to prove a political point through a meta analysis of articles that only agree with their point. I'll briefly go over each point they address:

1) Adaptation to a Specialized Bamboo Diet
There is nothing much to say here as they addressed all of it basically. Giant pandas evolved to hyper specialize into a dietary niche because it was both low-energy and plentiful during a time period where food was intermittently scarce and bamboo was widely available in the region.

2) Response to Bamboo Flowering
True and false. It is true that natural hindrances to bamboo flowering exist and overall the species did overcome them but that was because in the past their range was much wider than it was now. Once again, as touched upon in my previous post, this was acceptable because megafauna had yet to evolve to min-max in a jungle environment and use bamboo as a food source. However, because humans exist and did change the environment we'll never know how long it would take for these factors to influence the fate of ailuropoda melanoleuca. In addition, as seen in history, the last peak cooling event nearly wiped out all giant pandas; another event at the same or slightly worse scale but simply longer would likely result in total extinction for this species due to their over-reliance on a single foodtype, bamboo.

3) Population History, Population Biology, Genetic Diversity
An all in once response for all 3 sub-headers as they roughly outline the same thing which is the hope and future of this species. As mentioned in my previous post, giant pandas are a biennial breeding species; only reproducing once every two years. While not an uncommon reproductive strategy, it is typically only successful when the species in question is the apex within it's breeding range but as a result it's very susceptible to external factors such as new species and environmental changes. An example of this is the polar bear, they typically reproduce every 3 years (less depending on cub mortality) and without a doubt are the apex of all terrestrial animals in the Artic. Effectively going the opposite path of giant pandas, they have an omnivorous system but have evolved to live off of a mainly carnivorous diet due to the environment they live in. However, similar to the giant panda, as a result of hyper-specializing for a particular biome and food source (seals) they are heavily affected by any changes to seal populations & any small lasting change to their environment. Overall another potential genetic dead-end although there is the real possibility of a new sub-species created through brown & polar bear cross breeding. Thus, unlike giant pandas, genetic diversity is not that much of an issue if grizzly-polar hybrids do develop into a new species.

Genetic diversity is also not that large of an issue in wildlife as it is in humans as natural predators, sibling killings, etc. all tend to remove all populations with "negative" traits. Thus, before inbreeding can become a significant issue (typically requires several generations of direct inbreeding: Father-daughter, Mother-son, etc.), species population tend to bounce back up so long as the habitat they reside in can support the population numbers. Once again though, due to the nature of the giant panda's hyper-specialization to bamboo forests they are highly suceptible to extinction events.

4)Hope for the Giant Panda
China will never let this species die; no need for hope and this paper was made for funding.
 
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Well, thank you for that detailed analysis of panda paleontology but were way off track here. You seem to be suggesting panda populations are in a state of extinction debt.

This is a species that has persisted for millions of years on this planet. Your fatalistic perspective on their eventual fate as a species does nothing to discount the great success theyve already had by taking advantage of a dependable and abundant resource. It doesnt matter that you think they shouldve died off in the last ice age or all been slaughtered by some sort of hyperevolved megacat--they didnt! I guess you would say they just got lucky or something but what i see is a successful strategy.

You seem to be framing their low reproductive rate as a disadvantage as well when its clear to me that it could very well be the key to their success, especially when resources are scarce as in the last ice age--you can only feed so many.

Obviously theres always a slant when youre dealing with state funded research and it must be read with a discerning lens, but i trust the chinese more than anyone to tell me about pandas--they would know!

Your last sentence above "china will never let the panda die" really characterizes my entire problem with your approach. What hubris. You humans really think you have it all figured out, but so far have only managed to wipe out many species and given life to none. Its so odd to me because several paragraphs above you are writing about how they already should be extinct, and several pages back you were so sure they are an "evolutionary dead end", so what are you decided on now that bamboo groves have invaded literally every neighborhood on the planet?
 
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Relax, I'm most assuredly not serious about this. I don't need to do an experiment to show me that feeding a diet that is as close as possible to the diet an animal evolved to eat...is the best diet for that animal. I don't need to show experimental results in an effort to change your mind about veganism, since experimental results can almost always be skewed, spun, interpreted, re-interpreted, mis-interpreted and manipulated to apparently show just about anything.

But such an experiment is easy to carry out, and yet you seem to be aghast at the idea of doing so. You are concerned about the fact that a layman aquarist could not do blood tests and organ function comparisons and the host of other analysis types that you feel necessary.

But a much more grass-roots analysis could be done, by just about anyone with enough time. Perform the experiment with the species of your choice, but extend it for the life of the animal. Keep both groups until death. Single specimens would not be appropriate, it would require a group of animals for the comparison to get statistically valid results. Compare average life spans of the two groups. Compare breeding successes and failures.

This exact experiment has been going on for all species for millions of years. It's called "life". If veganism were actually the superior approach to nutrition...there would be a huge percentage of vegan life-forms everywhere we look in nature. But...there aren't. We can debate whether there are none at all, or simply very, very few, but that's splitting hairs. It isn't the natural way for animals to live, as evidenced by the fact that they don't live that way. It isn't an effective way to nourish animals, because so few of them obtain nourishment that way.

I don't fight nature in my aquarium keeping. If a fish didn't evolve to live in the water I have available to me...I pass on that species, in favour of other species that are suited to the type of water I have. If a fish requires high temperatures, I will either provide those temperatures or else simply not keep that fish...rather than having a heart to heart with it, trying to convince it that it will be more comfortable in cooler water, I will find other fish whose natural temperature range matches what I can provide. If a fish normally eats occasional large meals in nature, I won't feed it once daily just because it's cool to watch it eat; conversely, if a fish requires constant grazing all day long, I won't feed it once daily just because it happens to be more convenient for me.

Long and short...the fish evolved to live and eat in a certain fashion. It's the product of many thousands or millions of years of natural selection, resulting in an organism that is perfectly suited to fill its environmental niche. I will not presume to know enough about it to force it into an artificial niche that happens to be easier or cheaper or more convenient or more palatable for me.

You seem to feel that you do know enough to do that, or to at least try to do that. IMHO, you are wrong, pure and simple. In your own words: "They don't deserve this."
You just don't listen... Its like the tenth time I'm writing this.. I'm not saying it's ok for a omnivore fish species or any specie that isn't naturally vegan ,to live on a vegan diet. I'm saying that it might be.

Humans and dogs have been studied and proven to be able to live and thrive on a vegan diet, when you do it right and building a healthy menu(that by the way animals in theyr natural envi

And blood tests and other are totally available for aquarists if you willing to pay for them.. even here in Israel I've found a fish vet that can do them (There are only 4 fish vets here!! In the entire country!).
 
And this relevant to fish how?????
Oh your right! It dosent ! I'm so sorry... if only I wrote on the start of my post that this ISNT RELEVANT TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC...

Like I said I've posted it because people here keep saying that human vegans are malnutrition people who are sick and has to take supplements all of theyr lives and all kind of myths that have nothing to do with reality.. and people keep saying that if I'm not showing research that proves it that I'm bullshitting.. so here are just a few articles from 5 min look in google ... now we can go back to talking about pandas, calling each other "****ty person"
And just posting emojis eating popcorn. Which are all the main topic of this thread...
 
Oh your right! It dosent ! I'm so sorry... if only I wrote on the start of my post that this ISNT RELEVANT TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC...

Like I said I've posted it because people here keep saying that human vegans are malnutrition people who are sick and has to take supplements all of theyr lives and all kind of myths that have nothing to do with reality.. and people keep saying that if I'm not showing research that proves it that I'm bullshitting.. so here are just a few articles from 5 min look in google ... now we can go back to talking about pandas, calling each other "****ty person"
And just posting emojis eating popcorn. Which are all the main topic of this thread...

No you asked for cherry picked information that supports your fundamentally flawed hypothesis, humans are not the same as dogs or as pandas, or as pangasius, or any other species of aquatic or terrestrial organisms, there's no point in making that connection within the context of the question you asked.

You asked about plant only feed for fish, on the grounds your working with a rescue that's concerned with animals from the factory farming meat industry, and I doubt that any rescue actually worth their salt would be willing to compromise the overall health of their animals over diet. If that is a concern, your best bet would be to find a readily available feed that fulfills the nutritional needs of the species you are interested in taking care of, and developing making your own feed in your own kitchen using sustainably sourced ingredients that includes plant and sustainably sourced animal products.

Scientific method states form an hypothesis and come up with a plan to test that hypothesis, perform experiments, in your case gather data, analyze data and results and form a conclusion. It does not work when you work backwards from the conclusion, and feel free to do your own research in that area if you don't agree with what I said.

If you don't like what RD. or jjohnwm have provided as advice, you should get in touch with academics working in aquaculture, within which pangasius has been studied since it is a fish that has extensive use in fish farming, maybe worth reaching out to aquariums associated with research may help you actually find an answer to your query, having ACTUALLY done my own research i do not expect you find the specific answer you are looking for, which is you cannot feed a plant only diet without supplementing the animals products nutritionally required for the species you wish to keep.

We support responsible animal husbandry on MFK, and your question is borderline cruelty against animals. Very good idea to stop flaming and gaslighting the esteemed members of our board and actually do the research and legwork yourself.

lastly this is RD.s nomination for the gold tier academic award, just going to leave this here, for you to peruse on your own time.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/rd-esteemed-academic.649562/
 
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I came across the attached post on LinkedIn, might be of interest to some on the forum. My guess is aimed at food fish aquaculture market (tilapia etc).

Screenshot 2024-01-14 at 16.26.14.jpeg
 
No you asked for cherry picked information that supports your fundamentally flawed hypothesis, humans are not the same as dogs or as pandas, or as pangasius, or any other species of aquatic or terrestrial organisms, there's no point in making that connection within the context of the question you asked.

You asked about plant only feed for fish, on the grounds your working with a rescue that's concerned with animals from the factory farming meat industry, and I doubt that any rescue actually worth their salt would be willing to compromise the overall health of their animals over diet. If that is a concern, your best bet would be to find a readily available feed that fulfills the nutritional needs of the species you are interested in taking care of, and developing making your own feed in your own kitchen using sustainably sourced ingredients that includes plant and sustainably sourced animal products.

Scientific method states form an hypothesis and come up with a plan to test that hypothesis, perform experiments, in your case gather data, analyze data and results and form a conclusion. It does not work when you work backwards from the conclusion, and feel free to do your own research in that area if you don't agree with what I said.

If you don't like what RD. or jjohnwm have provided as advice, you should get in touch with academics working in aquaculture, within which pangasius has been studied since it is a fish that has extensive use in fish farming, maybe worth reaching out to aquariums associated with research may help you actually find an answer to your query, having ACTUALLY done my own research i do not expect you find the specific answer you are looking for, which is you cannot feed a plant only diet without supplementing the animals products nutritionally required for the species you wish to keep.

We support responsible animal husbandry on MFK, and your question is borderline cruelty against animals. Very good idea to stop flaming and gaslighting the esteemed members of our board and actually do the research and legwork yourself.

lastly this is RD.s nomination for the gold tier academic award, just going to leave this here, for you to peruse on your own time.
https://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/threads/rd-esteemed-academic.649562/
Once again the vegan human info and articles is sure to people here requested it. I didnt think for a second that any fish or panda diet should be modified based o humans diet..
And all you said about the science way... well that's exactly what I'm doing...
I still dont understand why you keep ignoring everything I'm saying...
I am doing research, and I am contacting vets and other professional.. and I also read a few articles about pangasius natural diet and in farms diet.
One article said that in farms pangasius hypopothalmus diet is 92% veg. But it didnt explained much on what exactly it is build from..and some parts of it didnt look totally reliable to me..
I'm taking anyone advices(well the ones that shared info) and I appreciate any of those. I already mentioned that after reading the info here and on other places I'm now aiming more towards diet that will supplment the meaty part with things that wont support the industry such as some kind of leftovers. And I read alot about chicken eggs and for now it seemed like an option. Eggs contains all the amino acids that a type of catfish need(didnt find info specific on pangasius)
And a few farmers and scientists considered it as a reasonable part and or ingridient in fish homemade or industrial diet.
Theres still a problem with the fat% which are high.
So I keep researching...
 
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I came across the attached post on LinkedIn, might be of interest to some on the forum. My guess is aimed at food fish aquaculture market (tilapia etc).

View attachment 1533463
Hi, thanks to be honest Its kinda looks like this guy is just trying to sell and therefore describing the wheat gluten as an amazing special thing that will solve all of anyone problems, but I'll give it a look and maybe contact him to see if theres anything behind it. Thank you
 
Funny to see this thread still going strong!
What is it about vegans that make everyone so uptight (both sides of the debate BTW)
Let S Savethemall do his research and ask questions, we know and he probably does too that it wont work, i dont see the harm in him asking.

The best option if he is worried about animals being killed for food is the by product/offcut processed food which would be a large percentage of manufactured foods anyway, especially the cheaper ones.

Even this quote means the diet is 8% not plant based so not vegan either.

One article said that in farms pangasius hypopothalmus diet is 92% veg
 
I can build something based on side products and leftovers it might work.. but I need a way to make su
except maybe just a bit less potential to destroy the world

based on the above two quotes, it appears to me that your primary objective is to add no “additional” animal death for environmental reasons. If that is the case, then discarded scraps are acceptable, no? (I am guessing here on your worldview and such). But, if this is the case, then you have a few good options . 1) contact local meat markets and see if you can pick up chopped off heads and tails. Pick up scraps once a weak and put on ice. 2) contact fish food companies and find a company that only buys meal made from scraps (probably most companies, it will not admit ). Etc, etc
 
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