Vegan /vegetarian fish food

[Savethemall]

No... I wish that all the comment here was just scientific or expressing an opinion about the topic... but look... in how many comments people described me? Criticised me and even gave me nice nicknames? It's kind of screaming out that the vegan topic is an irritating thing for some people.i think that what's bother Backfromthedead (which btw I'm pretty sure also thinks a vegan diet isn't good for fish, yet he leaves a room for discussion!) and also what's bother me, is that this thread turned into a fight instead of a discussion. I opened this thread in order to hear opinion and ideally scientific data on this topic. Not in order to get thumbs up or down(not the best phrase, hope's you'll know what I mean). There are some members here who is doing exactly that, sharing info and articles and that's great for me even if it dosent point towards the dreamy result I wished for( which is that the fish could easly be vegan with no prob and there is tons of scientific data supports that.)
I've opened this thread tin order to learn . Not to tick a V for myself and go making a blind choice.
In most of my posts I've tried to emphaises the fact that just because an animal in the wild is carnivore or omnivore dosent mean that it has to be and that there is no way to change it. And gave example from humans and dogs. except from that point, the fact that I am a vegan or that someones dog is ,has nothing to do with me changing the fish diet to eat vegan food.
Like I've mentioned so many times all of my fish eat diets that are good and relevant for theyr specie and as you know that means containing meat. And I'm not going to change it UNLESS I'll find enough evidence that support it.
So how are all the name calling and trash talking about vegans relevant to the discussion??
You can have a nice example with RD posts which it's pretty clear that he thinks vegan for fish is not an option diet.
Does he need to call me in names? No ,he just explain his opinion and back it up with scientific papers. That's a great way to discuss something. And others here have been doing it as well.
I also think it's a better way in order to actually open someone to your ideas and opinions that to trash talk them.

 

[SilverArowanaBoi]

No... I wish that all the comment here was just scientific or expressing an opinion about the topic... but look... in how many comments people described me? Criticised me and even gave me nice nicknames? It's kind of screaming out that the vegan topic is an irritating thing for some people.i think that what's bother Backfromthedead (which btw I'm pretty sure also thinks a vegan diet isn't good for fish, yet he leaves a room for discussion!) and also what's bother me, is that this thread turned into a fight instead of a discussion. I opened this thread in order to hear opinion and ideally scientific data on this topic. Not in order to get thumbs up or down(not the best phrase, hope's you'll know what I mean). There are some members here who is doing exactly that, sharing info and articles and that's great for me even if it dosent point towards the dreamy result I wished for( which is that the fish could easly be vegan with no prob and there is tons of scientific data supports that.)
I've opened this thread tin order to learn . Not to tick a V for myself and go making a blind choice.
In most of my posts I've tried to emphaises the fact that just because an animal in the wild is carnivore or omnivore dosent mean that it has to be and that there is no way to change it. And gave example from humans and dogs. except from that point, the fact that I am a vegan or that someones dog is ,has nothing to do with me changing the fish diet to eat vegan food.
Like I've mentioned so many times all of my fish eat diets that are good and relevant for theyr specie and as you know that means containing meat. And I'm not going to change it UNLESS I'll find enough evidence that support it.
So how are all the name calling and trash talking about vegans relevant to the discussion??
You can have a nice example with RD posts which it's pretty clear that he thinks vegan for fish is not an option diet.
Does he need to call me in names? No ,he just explain his opinion and back it up with scientific papers. That's a great way to discuss something. And others here have been doing it as well.
I also think it's a better way in order to actually open someone to your ideas and opinions that to trash talk them.

I'm just going to be frank and honest with you, buddy. You ain't going to find anything here regarding the specific topic you want to learn about. Everything else, yes, we can help, but this, no. Maybe you could check your local library or perhaps an aquarium/research facility. Those places would be better for finding the scientific evidence you are looking for.

 

[Savethemall]

I've already found and learned alot in this topic, and people here shared with valuable info and also ideas. I'm also looking on other places but the relevant part of whats going on here is also helping.

If you guys know of any food product that uts meaty part is made only from leftovers it will be great and I can see if it will work.
Also if you have ideas how can I build an healthy diet from something like eggs, or something similar that will be great too.
Also, another q
I know that most fish has problem with consuming "hot blood" meat because of high fat and also the way that this fat act in a "cold blooded" body. But I know pangasius are consuming mammals and birds in the wild, how do how often and if it matters. Does anyone here know about this topic and pangasius spp?

 

[Trouser Cough]

I'm just going to be frank and honest with you, buddy. You ain't going to find anything here regarding the specific topic you want to learn about. Everything else, yes, we can help, but this, no. Maybe you could check your local library or perhaps an aquarium/research facility. Those places would be better for finding the scientific evidence you are looking for.

I don't see what that person posts but I'd bet you five bucks that's not a dude and another five that they're not interested in learning. I'd slip another fiver behind that betting that she's a suboptimal candidate for research. Much like drunks and the overtly religious, whomever that is wants you to listen to them but they don't have any interest in listening to you. They haven't any documentation for their claim(s), they aren't backing down from their assertion and they've been provided objective data that they openly discount as subjective opinion.

She'll also re-enter the fray once in a while to sob about mistreatment.

This is about finding a sympathetic ear. She has no use for objective data.

Pay close attention, Grasshopper. There is a significant subtext in this mess.

 

[Backfromthedead]

Again with the disingenuous claims; where have I or anyone else claim there are no herbivore fish species or that fish could not evolve to be one? If you're going to argue stick to the point and don't make ad hominem and strawman attacks on the people who disagree with the OP of the thread. My previous post was 2-fold: claiming giant pandas are a carnivore surviving as a herbivore is disingenuous (they are a "transitional" heribivore species although it's doom to be a failure; "transitional" only due to their taxonomical classifications as carnivores) and the entire discussion, until you brought it up, has been fairly apolitical and non-"self righteous" as you put it. 90-99% of the comments have been strictly about the illogical decision to force carnivious/omnivorous fish a vegan diet. There is nothing political, self-righteous, or honorable to point out the obvious. At the core of most replies is not a message related to ethics but the simple fact that it is illogical to try and change the diet of creatures if it would not positively benefit them. I've read many disucssion on this forums and others on nutrition not only for fish but humans and large birds of prey. On this forum in particular RD. has extensively gone in depths about the aquarium pellet industry and had he found vegan-style pellets to be the best nutrition wise I would bet most users on this forum would switch over if we could afford to.

You and the OP seem to be the only one arguing over a moot point; most users here do not care about a partial vegan diet as we only want the best for our fish but a full-vegan diet is clearly deterimental to carnivious and omnvirous fish.

I will break this down for you clearly: there is no species on Earth, aside from humans, that intentionally desires to consume a singlur source of energy IF it has the option and ability to eat multiple types of food without competition & without extraordinary effort. Even then, it's is extremely risky for humans to solely consume a single food source type aside from a few specific examples. Most, if not all, known heribovres in nature are opportunistic carnivores as energy transfer and storage is the single driving force of life outside of (although intimately tied to) reproduction for all life aside from humans (that we know of so far).

Ad hominem? Look at you whippin out your logical fallacies. This aint high school debate class, its an online forum and I type what pleases me so...

Im not even sure what were arguing anymore but just because you type something in bold doesnt give your pseudo-intellectual babbling more substance, neither does name-dropping another MFKer who i very much doubt would appreciate you dragging his good name into your rant. But hey, it seems to be working for the gen z crowd here so do whatever works i guess. That was an all ad hominem paragraph, enjoy.

I havent suggested anything perverse here. Im not saying fish or any animal could spontaneously evolve or decide one day just to eat plants. I'm saying they may have already evolved the ability to do so.

I have no proof, it is simply a "moot point" were discussing as you say, so why get so bent out shape? I just didnt know there was such reckless hate for vegetarians out there lol.

You say herbivores will be opportunistic carnivores....well im saying some carnivores could be opportunistic herbivores, and provided an easy, well known example. Ive yet to see anything similar from you, just a bunch of misspelled inflammatory rhetoric trying to quickly discredit me or something.

 

[Backfromthedead]

T thiswasgone here is some recent literature suggesting exactly what you are saying is disingenuous ie pandas being carnivores surviving as herbivores:

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)30395-1

And sourced from that same article, some literature suggesting the opposite of what you said earlier ie pandas are an evolutionary dead end:

Giant Pandas Are Not an Evolutionary cul-de-sac: Evidence from Multidisciplinary Research

The giant panda (Ailuropoda melanoleuca) is one of the world’s most endangered mammals and remains threatened by environmental and anthropogenic pressure.

academic.oup.com

Sorry if this is too "red herring" for you. (Ha!)

 

[SilverArowanaBoi]

I don't see what that person posts but I'd bet you five bucks that's not a dude and another five that they're not interested in learning. I'd slip another fiver behind that betting that she's a suboptimal candidate for research. Much like drunks and the overtly religious, whomever that is wants you to listen to them but they don't have any interest in listening to you. They haven't any documentation for their claim(s), they aren't backing down from their assertion and they've been provided objective data that they openly discount as subjective opinion.

She'll also re-enter the fray once in a while to sob about mistreatment.

This is about finding a sympathetic ear. She has no use for objective data.

Pay close attention, Grasshopper. There is a significant subtext in this mess.

Thank you for mentioning that Trouser Bark@. I totally missed that lol.

 

[RD.]

This topic is starting to remind me of some of the discussions back in the good old days. Not nearly enough blood yet, but ....

Honestly this entire topic is a moot point, as the science regarding this novel idea (cough-cough), simply doesn't exist. I suspect that it never will. The vast majority of feed trials are very short term, and for the most part involve fish that are commercially raised and destined for someone's barbecue. The issue with non-animal nutrient sources is there will typically be one or more essential amino acids not present (so supplementation will always be required), as well as an excess of antinutritional matter, which is the case with most plant sources. The latter has a negative effect on both growth & overall health. The science is already out there, at least enough that one can extrapolate from studies on fish raised for commercial use, to similar species/types of fish raised for aquariums.

Carry on.....

 

[RD.]

neither does name-dropping another MFKer who i very much doubt would appreciate you dragging his good name into your rant

Yeah, leave my wife's name out your mo fo mouth! lol


J/K, just trying to lighten this thread up a bit.

 

[jjohnwm]

... It's kind of screaming out that the vegan topic is an irritating thing for some people...I've tried to emphaises the fact that just because an animal in the wild is carnivore or omnivore dosent mean that it has to be and that there is no way to change it.

I'm just going to be frank and honest with you, buddy. You ain't going to find...

I don't see what that person posts but I'd bet you five bucks that's not a dude and another five that they're not interested in learning. I'd slip another fiver behind that betting that she's a suboptimal candidate for research. Much like drunks and the overtly religious...

Ad hominem? Look at you whippin out your logical fallacies. This aint high school debate class...Im not even sure what were arguing anymore...

This topic is starting to remind me of some of the discussions back in the good old days. Not nearly enough blood yet, but ....Carry on.....

Yeah, leave my wife's name out your mo fo mouth!

Boy, am I glad I stepped away from this "conversation" awhile back...because re-visiting it now is a heady blast of chuckles that wouldn't have had the same impact if they had trickled in over the course of several days. This thread...delivers!

But it also, sadly, is a bit reminiscent of the last time I opened the lid of my septic collection tank to check the condition of the contents. Even when it's good...it's still pretty bad...