A Very Gruesome Death......

[viejafish]

A heater doesn't have to be "over sized" to have the potential to cook ones fish. Even smaller underrated heaters can cook ones fish if they stay stuck in the on position. It simply takes longer, compared to a more powerful heater. So instead of a disaster taking place over night, it takes place over a long weekend while one is away. It still happens all the time.

This is not true and unscientific. If a heater is stuck, the tank water temperature will eventually reach equilibrium according to a heat loss equation that is proportional to the room temperature and the heat delivering capacity of the heater. At a constant room temperature, a smaller heater will reach lower equilibrium temperature than a larger heater. At a higher room temperature, both heaters will attain respectively higher equilibrium temperature. Most heater manufacturers provide a chart to help select the right size heater, typically based on raising the equilibrium temperature of a given volume of water to a maximum of 10F above room temperature.

The only chance a right size heater can over heat (or under heat) the tank water is if the room temperature can fluctuate by a large margin. Say if you select the right size heater based on a room temperature of 70F, the maximum temperature a stuck heater can attain is 80F. But if there is a heat wave, the AC is off, the heater is stuck, and the room temperature hits 90F, then you are looking for cooked fish. When I go away for vacation, I don't turn off the heat or AC and set my thermostat at 65F in winter, and 78F in summer and all my heaters are either right size or undersized.

 

[RD.]

This is not true and unscientific.

Really. So what you are saying is that every single last person who has come home to a tank full of cooked fish has been using heaters that were overated for their tanks? I don't think so. In fact, you just stated in your post that what I described indeed CAN happen.

The only chance a right size heater can over heat (or under heat) the tank water is if the room temperature can fluctuate by a large margin. Say if you select the right size heater based on a room temperature of 70F, the maximum temperature a stuck heater can attain is 80F. But if there is a heat wave, the AC is off, the heater is stuck, and the room temperature hits 90F, then you are looking for cooked fish.

I'm not sure why you singled out that portion of my comment, nor do I care. I simply wanted to set the record straight. It can, and does, happen, exactly as I previously stated. BTW - not every member of MFK has AC, nor is the ambient room temp of every member of MFK 70F year round, as used in your scenario.

Using the following manufacturers chart, and factoring in a "standard room temp" of 80F or perhaps even higher, in a home with no AC, located in an area with the potential for heat waves during certain times of the year, and you now have the potential for exactly as I described.

http://www.aqueonproducts.com/products/submersible-heater.htm#


Where I live, that exact scenario is actually quite common, as very few people in this part of the world bother with AC, as 6 months out of the year we are shoveling snow. But that doesn't mean that we don't experience heat waves, because we do. Our house is the only one on our street with central AC.


I get a kick how some people on this site feel that every member here lives in the same area as they do, with the same local conditions, be it weather, water parameters, chlorine levels, etc. Talk about unscientific, and short sighted.






To the OP, my apologies, I did in fact misunderstand what you had stated about the heater being part of your Eheim.

 

[fishnatics]

Sorry to hear that. It really sucks. If that happened to me, I would cry.

 

[JasonsPlecosCichlids]

Starting tomorrow the heater will be off in the 265, it will be my official first night at the house so I will monitor. I assume it will be ok since I had one 500 watt heater on the pool after it got to room temp at stayed around 70-73 degrees. Still hard to see only on tank filled with fish. I think I have 25-30 fish left.

I contacted Eheim via Email just now, not sure if they will/can do anything but its worth a shot.

 

[chopsteeks]

So sorry to hear this. A good person always feels bad when their fish dies.

On the subject of controller, any recommendations ? Best bang for the buck as I have multiple tanks.

 

[xraycer]

So sorry to hear this. A good person always feels bad when their fish dies.

On the subject of controller, any recommendations ? Best bang for the buck as I have multiple tanks.

I've been running this for over a year and a half. Very affordable extra insurance http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-supplies/aquarium-heaters/finnex-hc-0800-heater-controller.html

Here's the digital version http://www.kensfish.com/aquarium-su...finnex-hc-0810-digital-heater-controller.html

 

[viejafish]

RD, I am just saying that your theory that "Even smaller underrated heaters can cook ones fish if they stay stuck in the on position. It simply takes longer, compared to a more powerful heater. So instead of a disaster taking place over night, it takes place over a long weekend while one is away. It still happens all the time. " makes no sense. You are implying the difference between a smaller and bigger heater is just how long it take to raise to the same boiling temperature, which is scientifically untrue. A smaller heater can only raise the tank water to a lower equilibrium temperature than a larger heater, no matter how long it takes. You are confused with the perception that a larger heater can raise the temperature faster, but there is also a heat loss in the equation that the greater the temperature differential between the tank water and the surrounding, the faster the heat is lost to the surrounding. I hate to lecture physics in this forum, but obviously you don't understand the physical law of heat gain and loss.

A right size heater can mean different thing to different room temperature. Typically, in a heated and AC room, a right size heater is one that can raise the temperature to a maximum of 10F above room temperature. If your tank is located in an unheated unAC room where the room temperature can vary widely, there is no one right size heater. You may need to swap bigger heater in winter with smaller heater in summer, or use multiple smaller heaters in winter, and unplug some in summer.

 

[RD.]

No need to repeat yourself, Einstein, I got it the first time around. lol It may have been poorly worded, but the fact remains that not just larger wattage "over sized" heaters have the potential to cook ones fish. Your original message was just as flawed as mine.

If your tank is located in an unheated unAC room where the room temperature can vary widely, there is no one right size heater. You may need to swap bigger heater in winter with smaller heater in summer, or use multiple smaller heaters in winter, and unplug some in summer.

And how many people on this forum do you reckon do that? Seriously, forget about the physics for a moment and apply some common sense. For many people, there is no "right size" heater, as there are seasonal variations in the ambient room temps which is exactly why smaller underated heaters still have the potential to be deadly. And in that scenario, a smaller heater will take longer to reach the same net result. Plug that into your physics equation and tell me that I'm not right, and that this never ever ever happens to anyone.

I'm not sure how long you've been in this hobby, but I've read this exact thing many times over the years. Warm room, properly rated heater that certainly could have probably been unlplugged during a warm spell, and wasn't, thermostat stuck on, and voila, tank full of warm dead stinky fish.

And the water doesn't need to reach a super hot temp, that's another common misconception. The water just needs to warm up enough to deplete 02 levels, which in an overstocked tank can sometimes happen overnight while one is in bed sleeping. Some tanks might be able to get by at 90F for a few days, others only a few hours before the situation becomes critical.

Again, not everything is as cut & dry as a physics equation, which is precisely why my original comment was followed with the recommendation of adding some redundancy to ones system, via the use of a controller.

 

[RD.]

The units that xraycer linked to seem like quality controllers at very affordable prices.

I use Medusa units, expensive, very reliable, but they were discontinued several yrs ago.

 

[viejafish]

Your theory that even a right size heater can cook fish, the chance is very remote. You need to have the star to line up such that the heater suddenly get stuck during a heat wave, the room is very warm and without AC. That said, even a tank without heater is vulnerable to heat wave death if the room has no AC. I have a number of stuck heaters over my 40 year of fish keeping, and yet I have not once lost fish to cooking because all my heaters were properly selected. All my stuck heaters were discovered and abandoned long before the star line up and do no harm to my fish.

I know you have more experience than I have been keeping fish, but many experienced hobbyists still make dump mistake. A case I witnessed was about 15 year ago at the ACA convention in Parcipany New Jersey. About half a dozen tanks with show discus were cooked to death over night. The hotel room was AC at low 70s. None of the 100+ show tanks need heater except for the discus. All tanks were 15 gal and the right size heater should be 50 watt. Discus keepers are among the most experienced hobbyists, yet they made dump mistake.

A dedicated controller is the ultimate protector, but you need to have one for each tank and is not for everyone who owes multiple tanks. I am recommending a simple solution, simply select the right size heater and make sure to leave your house with some heat and AC on even if you are away. You are scarring people that even a right size heater can cook fish is just exaggeration.