ACA Convention and New Hybrid Classes
- Thread starter Mr.Firemouth
- Start date
Mr.Firemouth;2685347; said:
You don't like hybrids but like line bred fish? Line breeding brings out a particular defect in a specimen which is desirable to the person breeding it. Usually these defects lead to complications and a shorter life span for the fish. This would include fish like Electric Blue Jack Dempseys, Parrotfish, and the hundreds of varieties of "fancy" goldfish. If your stance is that you don't want to see the corruption of a species, line breeding for a particular recessive trait is just as detrimental if not more so than hybridization.
The debate about "conservation" is moot. The fishkeeping hobby has very little to do with conservation. The conservation the ACA seems to promote is the "purity" of the cichlid hobby. Hybridization amongst hobbyists will continue no matter how much effort is put forth by the club. Stop wasting time about "conserving" the integrity of the species. The people that promote their hybrid fish (flowerhorns, etc) that the ACA abdicates are well aware that their fish are not a naturally ocurring species. The people that are cross breeding different species of cichlids are typically amateurs that do not know or care what species they are buying, but care more about the aesthitcal features of a fish. This is why fancy goldfish are so popular. The Cichlids in the hobby will not face dire straits because of hybridization within a hobby. They will face challenges because of pollution of habitat and overutilization which includes collection from their endemic regions. Why not spend more time promoting conservation of cichlids in their endemic regions rather than berate flowerhorn keepers who will never have any effect on the native populations of fish that they are bred from? I think quite a bit of what the hobby is about gets lost in personal agenda. Save the fish, let the fish snobs go extinct.
Mr.Firemouth;2685347; said:
When you imply your idea as to humans, it basically means.........
I don't like/support inter-ethnic Marriages, instead I'd rather in-breed, Ohhhhhhhhhh yeaaaaa I like inbreeding! We all look the same!(and also sometimes severely deformed)
Sorry, it was just way too funny for me to keep it to myself
JP
If linebreeding is done correctly, and an outcross to a new fish from another source is done every 4th generation no deformities will occur. Dr. Joanne Norton has made many articles on how to line breed without deformities or weak fish and how to maintain a captive strain.
At least I can admit to being a hypocrite and state that I like linebred fish with better colors and dislike the odd looking hybrid fish.(Odd IMO,only)
I also do not believe the ACA'ers are fish snobs. They are purists with a different view point. I find it strange that they are OK with people who keep hybrids and don't disrespect them in any of the threads on the ACA site, but hybrid keepers want to refer to them as fish snobs.
There is a science to line breeding so that you can trace a recessive trait, recreate it over and over, and fix a strain to breed true. Can this be said about the random manipulation of hybrid crosses?
Is there any proof or research that hybrids do not create deformities or weak fish compared to the health of the fish they were created from?
Why be so argumentative anyway?
Why NOT go to an ACA convention? Wouldn't you be interested in the speakers showing cool videos of fish in their natural habitat? Would it not be interesting to listen to their talks on collecting or the behavior of the fish we keep in the wild?
What about seeing the sites while in Cincinnati? There are tours and other fun things to do while there.
It is more than just picking up a few bags of fish. It is what you make of your time while there. It is up to you.
At least I can admit to being a hypocrite and state that I like linebred fish with better colors and dislike the odd looking hybrid fish.(Odd IMO,only)
I also do not believe the ACA'ers are fish snobs. They are purists with a different view point. I find it strange that they are OK with people who keep hybrids and don't disrespect them in any of the threads on the ACA site, but hybrid keepers want to refer to them as fish snobs.
There is a science to line breeding so that you can trace a recessive trait, recreate it over and over, and fix a strain to breed true. Can this be said about the random manipulation of hybrid crosses?
Is there any proof or research that hybrids do not create deformities or weak fish compared to the health of the fish they were created from?
Why be so argumentative anyway?
Why NOT go to an ACA convention? Wouldn't you be interested in the speakers showing cool videos of fish in their natural habitat? Would it not be interesting to listen to their talks on collecting or the behavior of the fish we keep in the wild?
What about seeing the sites while in Cincinnati? There are tours and other fun things to do while there.
It is more than just picking up a few bags of fish. It is what you make of your time while there. It is up to you.
Rich, the bottom line is that those (few who have enough pull in the ACA to get this calss cancelled) don't view people who keep flowerhorns as part of the same hobby.
They view them as keeping fish that are inherently detrimental to conservation. That they're destroying the cichlid hobby by keeping flowerhorns. Many in the ACA don't believe that the ACA has anything to offer to those who keep flowerhorns. That people are OK until they mention that they like and breed flowerhorns...and then they'll get the stink eye, "Oh, flowerhorns....they're hybrids...so I don't keep those....why don't you keep this brown fish instead?"
It's just not an environment that's either welcoming or conducive to fellowship or education...or participation by those on the outside.
Sadly.
They view them as keeping fish that are inherently detrimental to conservation. That they're destroying the cichlid hobby by keeping flowerhorns. Many in the ACA don't believe that the ACA has anything to offer to those who keep flowerhorns. That people are OK until they mention that they like and breed flowerhorns...and then they'll get the stink eye, "Oh, flowerhorns....they're hybrids...so I don't keep those....why don't you keep this brown fish instead?"
It's just not an environment that's either welcoming or conducive to fellowship or education...or participation by those on the outside.
Sadly.
dogofwar;2687082; said:
Matt,
You are my hero!
You are very well spoken on the issue and I think it is funny that the 1st thing many ACA faithful think is that you are a big time flowerhorn keeper. They are just a tad on the judgemental side, with a large portion of knee-jerk. Keep up the good work!
pug
Much appreciated, Pug!
I just think that cichlidiots should unite instead of divide...as we have more in common than different...
Others disagree.
I just think that cichlidiots should unite instead of divide...as we have more in common than different...
Others disagree.
dogofwar;2687082; said:
I am a member of the ACA, and at this point, I don't know what the ACA can offer those who keep hybrids exclusively.
I don't feel that keeping hybrids is destroying the hobby. To each his own. I don't keep hybrids, myself, but have no problems with those who do. Anyone who keeps their fish responsibly and cares for them well is fine in my book.
My argument against having hybrids in the Cincinnatti show was more about why the people who brought those fish would join the ACA, with the limited benefits for them. At this point, hybrids are not supposed to be included in the Trading Post, and for one show, those fish would be allowed. What about the next show?
I've said this on various forums. The leadership of the ACA needs to clarify their stance on hybrids in the ACA, and deal with the repercussions of this decision. I myself would not leave the ACA with the inclusion of hybrids. This decision would have little to no impact on my main interest, which is Victorian cichlids and the CARES program. I am against hybridization of these fish, because of their endangered status in the wild.
I am sorry that the decision to exclude hybrids from the next show has caused even more of a rift between the ACA and hybrid keepers. However, I feel that this decision was the right one until the ACA makes a solid statement one way or the other on hybrids.
I respect your perspective Barbara but I disagree that the ACA COULDN'T have a lot to offer those who keep hybrids. Remember that a lot of people (including ACA members) who keep flowerhorns or other hybrids also keep wild-type fish. It's not hard for one kind of cichlidiot to get excited and hooked on another kind of cichlid than they're currently keeping.
A flowerhorn is a big, mean cichlid. Caring for a flowerhorn is a lot like caring for other big, mean cichlids. And the ACA could or should provide education on proper care, breeding, etc. on these fish. How different is care for an OB peacock than an AER peacock? A red devil that's a mix of species vs. one that's "pure"?
I agree that for people who keep hybrids to engage with the ACA / attend the annual conference would take an act of faith that the ACA will change its currently hostile attitude toward the fish and those who keep them. How much fun would it be to be a "closeted" flowerhorn keeper?
At its foundation, ACA Leadership needs to dispel the myth that flowerhorns are, in and of themselves, "the problem"...and focus on unifying cichlid hobbysist around responsible fish keeping!
A flowerhorn is a big, mean cichlid. Caring for a flowerhorn is a lot like caring for other big, mean cichlids. And the ACA could or should provide education on proper care, breeding, etc. on these fish. How different is care for an OB peacock than an AER peacock? A red devil that's a mix of species vs. one that's "pure"?
I agree that for people who keep hybrids to engage with the ACA / attend the annual conference would take an act of faith that the ACA will change its currently hostile attitude toward the fish and those who keep them. How much fun would it be to be a "closeted" flowerhorn keeper?
At its foundation, ACA Leadership needs to dispel the myth that flowerhorns are, in and of themselves, "the problem"...and focus on unifying cichlid hobbysist around responsible fish keeping!
