I agree with both sides of this arguement but there is one thing that really gets to me about the large retailer in question. The puffer tanks at the Petsmart tell customers that these fish are "community fish". I dont care how stupid the majority of the public is, they will purchase this fish as a community fish because "it said so on the label". This needs to be changed. The X- manager at the ZPetco near me was fired for causing waves at the company. Those "waves" were his experienced knowledge of fishkeeping wich he passed on to customers. Petco didnt like him going against their instruction. He was fired. Why would a company fire someone for correcting a wrong statement? the interest is in the all mighty dollar. I have been removed form a Petsmart for telling a sales associate and a customer that these puffers are NOT community fish. This is also ignorance on the part of the retailer.
Accuracy In Information
- Thread starter sully
- Start date
TankBuster,
I work at PetSmart, and luckily our Pet Care manager and Store Manager, know what I am talking about and I tell the customer the truth and get backup from them when I have a problem with a customer. I tell everyone that puffers aren't community fish, those fin nipping little devils!
I work at PetSmart, and luckily our Pet Care manager and Store Manager, know what I am talking about and I tell the customer the truth and get backup from them when I have a problem with a customer. I tell everyone that puffers aren't community fish, those fin nipping little devils!
Its good they are on your side, but the tag clearly states that they are community. What will it take to change that?
Radley, i agree with you completely. The knowledge of the associate is extremely important. Perhaps the key. No sign will ever replace what a fish person know. That is another issue. Signage is a subset within the topic of Accuracy In Information.
"It is great to request pics" Thanks guppy. we need as many as we can get, Not just today; but tomorrow, next week, and next year. Make our Photo Gallery a regular spot to post clearly scaled fish that exceed the sizes listed at Retailers.
TankBuster. We have been provided a "Very attentive ear". A man whose knowledge of fish and fishkeping is vast. And that ear is attached to a man that has kept fish for nearly 40 years. I will write down your concern and include it with information we are submitting as part of the review of signage.
We are also asking individuals considered to be "authoritative resources" within the academic side of fishkeeping for input. That too will be included as part of this process.
Anyone with a specific concern about signage--please post it at our board. We have made a public section available for input. We are not a fishkeeping board. We can't and do not want to become a fishkeeping community. We are an Advocacy site. The primary activity on that forum is discussion directly related to development and implementation of activities held out of the public eye.
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/forum/index.php
We will notice posts in the public area of our forum--we get an interesting level of traffic but don't see much general discussion in there. Any little bit will stick out--lol.
"It is great to request pics" Thanks guppy. we need as many as we can get, Not just today; but tomorrow, next week, and next year. Make our Photo Gallery a regular spot to post clearly scaled fish that exceed the sizes listed at Retailers.
TankBuster. We have been provided a "Very attentive ear". A man whose knowledge of fish and fishkeping is vast. And that ear is attached to a man that has kept fish for nearly 40 years. I will write down your concern and include it with information we are submitting as part of the review of signage.
We are also asking individuals considered to be "authoritative resources" within the academic side of fishkeeping for input. That too will be included as part of this process.
Anyone with a specific concern about signage--please post it at our board. We have made a public section available for input. We are not a fishkeeping board. We can't and do not want to become a fishkeeping community. We are an Advocacy site. The primary activity on that forum is discussion directly related to development and implementation of activities held out of the public eye.
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/forum/index.php
We will notice posts in the public area of our forum--we get an interesting level of traffic but don't see much general discussion in there. Any little bit will stick out--lol.
[QUOTE
TankBuster. We have been provided a "Very attentive ear". A man whose knowledge of fish and fishkeping is vast. And that ear is attached to a man that has kept fish for nearly 40 years. I will write down your concern and include it with information we are submitting as part of the review of signage.
[/QUOTE]
You have my vote!
TankBuster. We have been provided a "Very attentive ear". A man whose knowledge of fish and fishkeping is vast. And that ear is attached to a man that has kept fish for nearly 40 years. I will write down your concern and include it with information we are submitting as part of the review of signage.
[/QUOTE]
You have my vote!
This is my first post here. I've heard alot of good things about this place but because I don't keep any 'Monster' fish, myself, I never joined. Been looking around and there is more to this place than just monsterfish, so I will likely put my 2 cents in elsewhere, and introduce myself. 
Thought I'd chime in here on this thread because I'm also involved in the NCIAC movement (but I don't do alot) because I've found over the years that the key to responsible husbandry in fishkeeping is accurate information. I can't tell you how many threads/posts I've seen bashing big chain stores for their bad information or how many frustrated new (and some not so new, but expanding into fish that are new to them) fishkeepers I've tried to help gain the knowledge they need to keep their fish successfully.
There are a couple of comments posted here that I'd like to address.
All of us are 'stoopid' about some things for a variety of reasons, or simply because we want to try something a different way than someone else's 'right' way. I don't want anyone taking away my right to be 'stoopid' if I choose to be
nor do I want someone telling me that I have to keep fish the way they say, or tell me what fish I can and cannot keep. Fishkeepers (in my experience) are an opinionated bunch. We search out info and try new things, different methods, and sometimes outright stoopid stuff just because we are fascinated with our fish and are always looking for the 'better way'.
) Ignorance is different from stupidity. An ignorant person behaves ignorantly because they don't know better. Given accurate information, ignorance is eliminated by education. Most of us would object vehemently if someone implied that we 'couldn't' learn. We can. We do it every day.
Miles. You said this:
Yes, it is sad but true that one person will be pushed aside by corporate. That's precisely why NCIAC has come here. There are people here who Know their stuff when it comes to fish. One voice is easily shut down. A whole movement makes waves.
NCIAC is starting to make waves. We want it to keep going. PETsMART no longer sells 'painted' fish because people who knew better spoke up. We CAN make a difference. But not one at a time. We need participation form all hobbyists who think accurate information is important. Everything changes. It's a fact of life or we'd all be cavemen. To change the corporate mindset we need to band together as our own 'corporation' of concerned consumers. Bottom line matters in the corporate world. If enough people send enough emails they will see their profits at risk and they will adapt.
Yes, people can be ignorant. All of us are ignorant about some things. No one 'knows it all' (even people who've been keeping fish since before we were born). The whole point of this movement is to demand (nicely and emphatically) that retailers have a responsibility to their consumers to supply accurate information at the point of purchase. From there, it is the consumers responsibility to take care of their fish. Some will do it well. Others will be going back to the store in a day or a week or a month to replace fish because they didn't care, or bother, to do the required research. At least if they run into well informed sales people, and accurate signage they will be starting off on the right foot. We can't take responsibility for what they do with that information, but it is incumbent on retailers (I think) to give out accurate information.
That's what this whole thing is about. Accurate information. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I'm heading off to wander about here. Anyone have any pointers as to which section I should head to to talk about loaches?
Thought I'd chime in here on this thread because I'm also involved in the NCIAC movement (but I don't do alot) because I've found over the years that the key to responsible husbandry in fishkeeping is accurate information. I can't tell you how many threads/posts I've seen bashing big chain stores for their bad information or how many frustrated new (and some not so new, but expanding into fish that are new to them) fishkeepers I've tried to help gain the knowledge they need to keep their fish successfully.
There are a couple of comments posted here that I'd like to address.
Forcing someone to do something right won't teach them anything about the 'rightness' of it. Just that there will be negative consequences for doing it the 'wrong' way. In fishkeeping, we all know that those consequences will become self-evident. It's only a matter of time. Besides, we all have differing opinions of the 'right' way to do most things. Who gets to be the one who lays down the law?
All of us are 'stoopid' about some things for a variety of reasons, or simply because we want to try something a different way than someone else's 'right' way. I don't want anyone taking away my right to be 'stoopid' if I choose to be
nor do I want someone telling me that I have to keep fish the way they say, or tell me what fish I can and cannot keep. Fishkeepers (in my experience) are an opinionated bunch. We search out info and try new things, different methods, and sometimes outright stoopid stuff just because we are fascinated with our fish and are always looking for the 'better way'. This I completely disagree with (sorry
) Ignorance is different from stupidity. An ignorant person behaves ignorantly because they don't know better. Given accurate information, ignorance is eliminated by education. Most of us would object vehemently if someone implied that we 'couldn't' learn. We can. We do it every day. Miles. You said this:
Yes, it is sad but true that one person will be pushed aside by corporate. That's precisely why NCIAC has come here. There are people here who Know their stuff when it comes to fish. One voice is easily shut down. A whole movement makes waves.
NCIAC is starting to make waves. We want it to keep going. PETsMART no longer sells 'painted' fish because people who knew better spoke up. We CAN make a difference. But not one at a time. We need participation form all hobbyists who think accurate information is important. Everything changes. It's a fact of life or we'd all be cavemen. To change the corporate mindset we need to band together as our own 'corporation' of concerned consumers. Bottom line matters in the corporate world. If enough people send enough emails they will see their profits at risk and they will adapt. Yes, people can be ignorant. All of us are ignorant about some things. No one 'knows it all' (even people who've been keeping fish since before we were born). The whole point of this movement is to demand (nicely and emphatically) that retailers have a responsibility to their consumers to supply accurate information at the point of purchase. From there, it is the consumers responsibility to take care of their fish. Some will do it well. Others will be going back to the store in a day or a week or a month to replace fish because they didn't care, or bother, to do the required research. At least if they run into well informed sales people, and accurate signage they will be starting off on the right foot. We can't take responsibility for what they do with that information, but it is incumbent on retailers (I think) to give out accurate information.
That's what this whole thing is about. Accurate information. Nothing more. Nothing less.
I'm heading off to wander about here. Anyone have any pointers as to which section I should head to to talk about loaches?
A three-part update. Part one deals with PETsMART; part two with help we need; and part three with activities being initiated over the next few weeks.
1. The review process at PETsMART has become very detailed. PETsMART and NCIAC.net will continue to exchange information and thoughts about the accuracy of the content through the next several weeks.
To date we can say the fish sizes have shown an incredible change. The information we have seen accurately describes the species being sold. Great job PETsMArt! It is something that PETsMART should be recognized for.
A near universal clarification of tank sizes required has occurred. Sizes have been increased to more accurately represent long term needs. In about 1/2 of the instances there is little if any room for disagreement. In the other instances the sizes are typically larger than what exists on current signage--but could still be subjected to a more careful scrutiny by PETsMART. It is our hope that many of the suggested tank sizes are increased.
Use of Salt has yet to be suggested as a requirement for any species reviewed (that is a change).
The people involved with NCIAC.net that have seen the data, reviewed it, and sent back suggestions for improvement are generally encouraged by the results to date. Parts of the process could drag into March.
We have to honor corporate confidentiality of this information. Final decisions have not yet been made. As we are able to share detailed information we will.
2. Which brings us to stuff to do--lol. Next up are PetCo, Petland and Walmart. We have some data for each of these retailers. Nothing as comprehensive as what were able to assemble for PETsMART. We need help getting POP Signage data for these companies. Hopefully people here and other sites will once again pitch into the effort and gather data. Our format can be seen at http://www.noclownsinacube.net/fish_chart.html. Copies of the spreadsheet that drove that page can be downloaded from a link at the bottom of the chart--feel free to use our spreadsheet. Any keystroking and re-entry we can avoid is appreciated. This time you can win a yet to be designed NCIAC.net T-Shirtlol.
Hopefully hobbyists help out again. We need to have accurate and comprehensive information to utilize during letter writing and e.mail efforts. We also need to have that information during direct conversation with the companies. Help with this will assist both you other hobbyists in getting a good baseline of information to utilize in the practice of Responsible Husbandry.
3. PetCo. We do have enough data to begin our efforts there. We need more to be as accurate as possible. Within the next 10-14 days we will once again post suggestions that specific types of correspondence be prepared and snail mailed or e-mailed. Hopefully we can once again generate e.mails and letters evidencing the concern shared by the hobbyist market.
Hope you all have a Happy and Successful New Year.
sully
You will see revisions to our site to reflect the progress being made in our attempt to work with retailers. It will take us a week to get those changes madethey will include sample letters you could use in our shared effort.
BTW, the "Tropical Community" tag at the top of the signs is plan-o-gram informaton. The intent is not to provide information to a consumer. Rather, it is designed as an in-house stocking instruction. That confusion is supposed to be eliminated.
1. The review process at PETsMART has become very detailed. PETsMART and NCIAC.net will continue to exchange information and thoughts about the accuracy of the content through the next several weeks.
To date we can say the fish sizes have shown an incredible change. The information we have seen accurately describes the species being sold. Great job PETsMArt! It is something that PETsMART should be recognized for.
A near universal clarification of tank sizes required has occurred. Sizes have been increased to more accurately represent long term needs. In about 1/2 of the instances there is little if any room for disagreement. In the other instances the sizes are typically larger than what exists on current signage--but could still be subjected to a more careful scrutiny by PETsMART. It is our hope that many of the suggested tank sizes are increased.
Use of Salt has yet to be suggested as a requirement for any species reviewed (that is a change).
The people involved with NCIAC.net that have seen the data, reviewed it, and sent back suggestions for improvement are generally encouraged by the results to date. Parts of the process could drag into March.
We have to honor corporate confidentiality of this information. Final decisions have not yet been made. As we are able to share detailed information we will.
2. Which brings us to stuff to do--lol. Next up are PetCo, Petland and Walmart. We have some data for each of these retailers. Nothing as comprehensive as what were able to assemble for PETsMART. We need help getting POP Signage data for these companies. Hopefully people here and other sites will once again pitch into the effort and gather data. Our format can be seen at http://www.noclownsinacube.net/fish_chart.html. Copies of the spreadsheet that drove that page can be downloaded from a link at the bottom of the chart--feel free to use our spreadsheet. Any keystroking and re-entry we can avoid is appreciated. This time you can win a yet to be designed NCIAC.net T-Shirtlol.
Hopefully hobbyists help out again. We need to have accurate and comprehensive information to utilize during letter writing and e.mail efforts. We also need to have that information during direct conversation with the companies. Help with this will assist both you other hobbyists in getting a good baseline of information to utilize in the practice of Responsible Husbandry.
3. PetCo. We do have enough data to begin our efforts there. We need more to be as accurate as possible. Within the next 10-14 days we will once again post suggestions that specific types of correspondence be prepared and snail mailed or e-mailed. Hopefully we can once again generate e.mails and letters evidencing the concern shared by the hobbyist market.
Hope you all have a Happy and Successful New Year.
sully
You will see revisions to our site to reflect the progress being made in our attempt to work with retailers. It will take us a week to get those changes madethey will include sample letters you could use in our shared effort.
BTW, the "Tropical Community" tag at the top of the signs is plan-o-gram informaton. The intent is not to provide information to a consumer. Rather, it is designed as an in-house stocking instruction. That confusion is supposed to be eliminated.
i wzas gettin sick of seeing signs saying pacu get 15"s long and can live comfortably in a 30 gallon.........same tag for theit irredecnt sharks which and both if im not mistaken can easily reach 3 feet!!!!
good cause!!!! walmart should be a major target as well!!
good cause!!!! walmart should be a major target as well!!
Sully I am glad you guys are getting somewhere. I am trying my best from the inside to get my coworkers better educated but it is going to be a long hard road just as you know. I have had to deal with several unhappy customers that have gotten the run around from other people trying to make a sale and I have gotten angry. Hopefully your efforts will get them better educated so I don't get so stressed out all of the time. I would help you out but obviously it would be a conflict of intrest. Good Job and Good Luck because I have a feeling the next few chains are going to be a lot tougher to deal with.
WalMart is on our list. Generally speaking many of their signs ar not inaccurate. Some have information that could and should be updated. We need to have every i dotted and t crossed when it comes to that company.
PetCo should not be as hard.
We have added on-line retailers to our list as well....we hope that we do not need massive e.mail and letter writing campaigns with them. On the surface their info seems to be better than brick and mortar stores. And, the cost associated with updating info is substantially less for these companies.
The key to our success is the support of fishkeepers. We need info about retailer POP Signage from across North America. We need a comprehensive view of what they are advertising. The only way to get it is to have you guys help us out.
We also need photos of fish with rulers that clearly show sizes of fish reared in tank bred environments.
We need support from hobbyists--we are hobbyists--we are trying to help other hobbyists--and, hobbyists yet to come. Hopefully we will continue to receive your help.
PetCo should not be as hard.
We have added on-line retailers to our list as well....we hope that we do not need massive e.mail and letter writing campaigns with them. On the surface their info seems to be better than brick and mortar stores. And, the cost associated with updating info is substantially less for these companies.
The key to our success is the support of fishkeepers. We need info about retailer POP Signage from across North America. We need a comprehensive view of what they are advertising. The only way to get it is to have you guys help us out.
We also need photos of fish with rulers that clearly show sizes of fish reared in tank bred environments.
We need support from hobbyists--we are hobbyists--we are trying to help other hobbyists--and, hobbyists yet to come. Hopefully we will continue to receive your help.
