Accuracy In Information

[RadleyMiller]

Radley, I am trying to understand what you said.

Am I right in assuming that I am the "advanced fishkeeper that is a stuck-up snob"? I come probably knowing less about fishkeeping than most of the members here. I readily admit my ignorance. I read posts and threads to help increase my knowledge. And, i have been keeping fish for over 30 years. I don't pretend to know it all. At the same time I have spent years on-line trying to help people that come looking for assistance with their fish. Sometimes I have answers--sometimes I don't. Often times the root of the problem resides, however, with the information that a consumer was given at the time of purchase. Misinformation provided as they were introducing themselves to fish. People come on-line to learn. They come on-line to get help. Those are the people that are ignorant. Ignorance is not an insult. They realize they don't know something. They recognize their ignorance. They are not stupid. A big difference.

Is the public ignorant--i will agree with that. Does that make all of them stupid? does that mean that the information presented to them through advertising should be false and misleading? Does that mean that a company has no obligation to present information that is accurate about the origin, nature, and characteristics of the product sold? Does that mean that it is okay to simply mislead buyers?

Does a consumer have the right to expect accurate information from a retailer? That is all this issue is about. I am personally sorry you feel like customers have treated you like dirt. That does not by default give a company a right to profit from the ignorance by presenting misleading information. If the consumer was presented accurate information would the ignorance level be increased or decreased?

Presenting accurate information will not eliminate selfishness or disregard of fish as a legitimate life form. Some people will continue to consider them as nothing more than ornaments. Many people will treat them in a manner inconsistent with the philosophy of responsible fishkeeping. I can't stop that. No amount of letters can stop that. That is not what this is about.

What can be changed, however, is the opportunity to provide responsible fish husbandry for the people that do care. Many of whom are the same people that are buying fish and killing them as a result of ignorance. An ignorance created by the seller of the fish. that is all i am after correcting. I don't think we can change humanity or the world. I do think we can change a small aspect of how fish are sold. We can take a first step. We can learn to crawl, then walk, and then run.

We can change corporations. The court of public opinion is a cruel court. One that retailers are accutely aware of. Corporations are much more aware of the protestations of the public than they are of the protestations of their employees.

I am not asking anybody to take a lot of time--just some. You don't even need to spend .39 cents on a stamp. E.mail is free. All I am asking is that responsible fishkeepers speak up to help others become the same more quickly--at less expense. With less frustration. I am optimistic--i tilt at windmills. With a little effort we often find that brickwalls have windows and doors. The task of changing behavior does not begin until someone says "no". Letters, and other efforts will help companies to take an action they woiuld not otherwise take more quickly.

Like I said--i tilt at windmills. I hope the people that take a less jaded perspective are willing to support an effort being openly endorsed across the web. I hope they take a moment to send e.mails and letters like many other hobbyists that belong to on-line communities.

What Miles and I were trying to say is we deal with two types, well really three types of people at the fish store. Most experienced fish keepers are not stuck up snobs because the main goal of the hobby is to share it with other people, it is just some people feel that they are wasting their time.

Type I - Totally Clueless
Type II - In and Out customers, no converstion or the "stuck up snobs"

Type III - Lots of experience, loves to talk, will share what they know, sometimes drop by just to say "hey"

When we deal with type II we do not know what size tank they have, how long they have been keeping fish, or even if they care about what they have.

When we deal with Types I and III we spend lots of time talking, and we also learn a lot from each other. I learn what type of tank they have, how long they have had it, what the y have, any experience, and then I tell them what I think. They only reason I look at the tags is to get the price so they can go through the register. People look at the tags and then they tell me they want the fish, I then will give them the information. "Oh it says an oscar can live in a 30 gallon tank?" "No mam, I am sorry but those fish easily get over a foot and you will need atleast a 75 for them, how big is your tank? I can show you some fish that would go great in the tank you have now, lets worry about the Oscars down the road" That is how I deal with type I customers. I usually spend more time with type IIIs because they love to talk about what they have, and I love to talk with them. I love talking to people buying their first tank as well because I too want them to be informed. Please do not think that we do not want people to be informed, I work really hard to make sure everyone I deal with is informed and that the other people I work with are also informed, and I have, in several cases, cut in on a co-worker who was giving out the wrong information.

What Miles and I were trying to say is that the individual employees that love fish do their job as best as they can and try to help, but there is always going to be people that don't care. We try our best to correct problems that have happened, give the best advice, and make sure the fish that we sell are going to be given good homes. I have dealt with people that cared more about a Betta than a man that had 3 gator gars in his basement. They were in a pond for humidity in the house and I refered him here because MFK ROCKS but he said he had no time for that. Please do not blame people for the mistakes of others. I try my best, and so do a lot of other people and you are not going to fix everything wrong with everything. I applaude your effort, but I also know that a lot of the responsibility rests in the hands of the consumer. All of us on MFK are not snobs, we want to share our expericences with others, and we are not ignorant because we do research. So please, do not place all of the blame on retailers because after the purchase, the consumer forgets what they were told and does not want to ask questions after the fact.

 

[Miles]

Here is the crux of the situation.. Plain and simple.


What good will accurate information do?


People who know it's not accurate, already know.

People who don't know it's not accurate likely will not care.

If they question it's accuracy to point they do care, they will reserach it and find out it's not accurate.





Don't get me wrong, I COMPLETELY agree that their can be more accuracy on the picture tags.. but in the long run, it will have a miniscule amount of impact on the hobby as a whole.

Those Tags aren't designed for true 'hobbyist' anyways, as most true hobbyist already know these type of statistics and they wouldn't trust the information of a chain store, even if it was correct.

If Newcomers to the hobby simply want all this information 'gifted' to them and to be 'babysat' as they set-up a tank, just as most chain stores provide, it is not going to help them advance as hobbyist anyways. To most people who shop at chain stores, the aquarium is a moving peice of furniture, not a hobby.



I think you should focus your energy more towards helping out the Local Fish stores that actually will impact the hobby in the long run. Perhaps try to plot out a program in which governments can offer financial assistance to locally owned businesses, such as Specialty Fish Stores, in order to create revenue for the 'special interest' business community.

I had goals and aspiration just like you do now, but after working with a company for a while you get to understand the big picture. People complain about PS's policies and the way they do business, but please.. please try to find a better way to operate the largest pet store chain in the country without having downsides. When the corporate office thinks, they think on a global level, not just what happens in Deleware or Idaho.



As far as the information being changed and becoming more accurate, you're going to have to wait. The only time they change the information cards is when they do an entire 'reset' of the fish wall.. Meaning fish are placed into new tanks, and you get all new information cards(picture tags). Only at this time will you notice changes (which I have personally been responsible for a few), and many of these changes will come from your letters.. Unfortunately they only reset about once a year, and they can 'choose' to listen to your requests or not.

 

[WyldFya]

Type III - Lots of experience, loves to talk, will share what they know, sometimes drop by just to say "hey"

That isn't possible for me. If I go to a fish shop, it is assumed that I end up buying something. I can't stop by and just say hi, things just start calling my name!

 

[RadleyMiller]

Here is the crux of the situation.. Plain and simple.


What good will accurate information do?


People who know it's not accurate, already know.

People who don't know it's not accurate likely will not care.

If they question it's accuracy to point they do care, they will reserach it and find out it's not accurate.





Don't get me wrong, I COMPLETELY agree that their can be more accuracy on the picture tags.. but in the long run, it will have a miniscule amount of impact on the hobby as a whole.

Those Tags aren't designed for true 'hobbyist' anyways, as most true hobbyist already know these type of statistics and they wouldn't trust the information of a chain store, even if it was correct.

If Newcomers to the hobby simply want all this information 'gifted' to them and to be 'babysat' as they set-up a tank, just as most chain stores provide, it is not going to help them advance as hobbyist anyways. To most people who shop at chain stores, the aquarium is a moving peice of furniture, not a hobby.



I think you should focus your energy more towards helping out the Local Fish stores that actually will impact the hobby in the long run. Perhaps try to plot out a program in which governments can offer financial assistance to locally owned businesses, such as Specialty Fish Stores, in order to create revenue for the 'special interest' business community.

I had goals and aspiration just like you do now, but after working with a company for a while you get to understand the big picture. People complain about PS's policies and the way they do business, but please.. please try to find a better way to operate the largest pet store chain in the country without having downsides. When the corporate office thinks, they think on a global level, not just what happens in Deleware or Idaho.



As far as the information being changed and becoming more accurate, you're going to have to wait. The only time they change the information cards is when they do an entire 'reset' of the fish wall.. Meaning fish are placed into new tanks, and you get all new information cards(picture tags). Only at this time will you notice changes (which I have personally been responsible for a few), and many of these changes will come from your letters.. Unfortunately they only reset about once a year, and they can 'choose' to listen to your requests or not.

Totally agree with you, again

 

[sully]

i guess i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. i always assumed people wanted to learn. maybe it is that optimism thing in me. I still shop at the lfs I started shopping at over 30 years ago. It is not even close to the same place. When i go there i do spend time talking with people. The owner, the manager, the staff, and other customers/friends that i have gotten to know over time.

I also shop for some dry goods or little equipment needswhen I am in a hurry at a very convenient PetSmart. The people that staff the department are great. Over the years i have gotten to know many of them as the turnover permits. I also spend time with people looking at and for fish.

I get fish (and send fish) to other people in the hobby around the country.

I have spent the past 4 years at a beginners oriented board helping people learn about fish.

I have been to fish club meetings. I read every issue of Buntbarsche Bulletin the day I get it.

The universal constant, regardless of the situation described above, is the desire for information. The desire to learn. The desire to take proper care of their fish.

"Gifting Information"? Hobbyists have to earn it? Is this some new code of fishkeeping? If they don't know it is inaccurate they likely don't care? if they really want it they can research it.

You guys are a tough crowd.

Teaching responsible fishkeeping happens on boards and in clubs when people arrive looking for it. These are the very same people in many cases that got the wrong info from a big box. The way i am reading it is that you only want to help them if they come to you. You won't do something that is a little inconvenient to help the person that doesn't even know they need it. Because some people think of fish as ornaments--all people do?

i will keep y'all updated on what we are doing. PetSmart has agreed to review the signage--maybe a few more letters will help them review it very carefully and a little more quickly. Maybe they can be convinced to take it more seriously.

Miles and Radley I wish you luck.

 

[Idealconcepts]

As mentioned already the responsibility (blame) cannot be put entirely on the business. Consumers need to educate themselves before they buy to ensure they have complete correct information with what responsibilities they are about to get into. If the consumer decides not to educate themselves then they need to be held accountable for not meeting the responsibilities. Take for example, dogs, I would bet over half the people who own dogs do not know all responsibilities with owning one. You need to properly socialize the dog with people and other dogs, put them through formal training class (the class is actually training the owner how to train the dog, the class is not training the dog), keep up with shots, fix the dog to prevent an unwanted litter, teaching kids that come into contact with a dog how they need to interact with the dog so they don’t get bit, never leaving any type of dog with a small/young child, as well as properly securing the dog in a crate or kennel when it cannot be supervised. Pet stores, backyard breeders, or even reputable breeders don’t tell you this. I learned all of this from doing my own research, through trainers, books, websites, and forums like this. As mentioned above its up to the owner to educate themselves.

 

[RadleyMiller]

i guess i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer. i always assumed people wanted to learn. maybe it is that optimism thing in me. I still shop at the lfs I started shopping at over 30 years ago. It is not even close to the same place. When i go there i do spend time talking with people. The owner, the manager, the staff, and other customers/friends that i have gotten to know over time.

I also shop for some dry goods or little equipment needswhen I am in a hurry at a very convenient PetSmart. The people that staff the department are great. Over the years i have gotten to know many of them as the turnover permits. I also spend time with people looking at and for fish.

I get fish (and send fish) to other people in the hobby around the country.

I have spent the past 4 years at a beginners oriented board helping people learn about fish.

I have been to fish club meetings. I read every issue of Buntbarsche Bulletin the day I get it.

The universal constant, regardless of the situation described above, is the desire for information. The desire to learn. The desire to take proper care of their fish.

"Gifting Information"? Hobbyists have to earn it? Is this some new code of fishkeeping? If they don't know it is inaccurate they likely don't care? if they really want it they can research it.

You guys are a tough crowd.

Teaching responsible fishkeeping happens on boards and in clubs when people arrive looking for it. These are the very same people in many cases that got the wrong info from a big box. The way i am reading it is that you only want to help them if they come to you. You won't do something that is a little inconvenient to help the person that doesn't even know they need it. Because some people think of fish as ornaments--all people do?

i will keep y'all updated on what we are doing. PetSmart has agreed to review the signage--maybe a few more letters will help them review it very carefully and a little more quickly. Maybe they can be convinced to take it more seriously.

Miles and Radley I wish you luck.

I applaude your efforts for trying to make things right, but like I have said, I try to do that everyday that I work. You mentioned people reading forums like these, well I have refered many people to this site because it is great and as well all know, it is always better to do your research. Some beginners do not do their research so they, if they end up with a knowledgable person helping them choose fish, go home with fish that are easy to take care of and they heard all about their care at the time of purchase. Granted, they may want to read up on them even more, but most beginners that spend time with associated that care leave happy and have learned something. However, it is their responsibility to remember what we tell them, and to make sure they follow it.

Radley

 

[RadleyMiller]

As mentioned already the responsibility (blame) cannot be put entirely on the business. Consumers need to educate themselves before they buy to ensure they have complete correct information with what responsibilities they are about to get into. If the consumer decides not to educate themselves then they need to be held accountable for not meeting the responsibilities. Take for example, dogs, I would bet over half the people who own dogs do not know all responsibilities with owning one. You need to properly socialize the dog with people and other dogs, put them through formal training class (the class is actually training the owner how to train the dog, the class is not training the dog), keep up with shots, fix the dog to prevent an unwanted litter, teaching kids that come into contact with a dog how they need to interact with the dog so they don’t get bit, never leaving any type of dog with a small/young child, as well as properly securing the dog in a crate or kennel when it cannot be supervised. Pet stores, backyard breeders, or even reputable breeders don’t tell you this. I learned all of this from doing my own research, through trainers, books, websites, and forums like this. As mentioned above its up to the owner to educate themselves.

This is true too, but not always the case about not getting information at the purchase. Many places do care about the animal and not about the $$ and will tell you everything you need, what to do, and offer solutions when a problem arises. There are corporations that care, and they have employees that care because they love their dog, cat, fish, snake, turtle, lizard, bird, frog, and any other pets so that the person they are helping takes care of their pet the way it is supposed to be done.

 

[Miles]

The universal constant, regardless of the situation described above, is the desire for information. The desire to learn. The desire to take proper care of their fish.

That is the problem. Most people who shop at PS do not 'desire to learn', they want immediate satisfaction, and they WANT IT NOW. They don't want to read a book, magazine, or even the picture tag that is presented right in front of them. They want the answers provided to them without thought, most of which they will forget when they leave the store.

People who desire to learn do it from every method BUT the picture tags.

What is the first thing you are taught when you begin researching the aquarium hobby on the Internet?

"Don't listen to anyone at a corporate Pet Store, they are just college kids off the street that don't know anything about fish."

We get the bad reputation whether we have knowledgable staff or not.

"Gifting Information"? Hobbyists have to earn it? Is this some new code of fishkeeping? If they don't know it is inaccurate they likely don't care? if they really want it they can research it.

Yes, Gifting Information. Atleast once a day I have someone walk up to me and say "I want a cheap fish tank with colorful fish that don't die easy... oh yeah, and I don't want to have to clean or maintain it".. now I could sit there and spend an hour of my time BABYSITTING and regurgitating the nitrogen cycle a million times. But I don't..

I hand them a simple care-sheet that explains the basics of cycling and setting up an aquarium. If they come back to me and seek more knowledge, I bend over backwards to help them as much as possible. If they take the care sheet and stuff it in their pocket and start shopping for tanks and ask to purchase Neon Tetras, I blow them off. Sorry, but I am not going to waste my (valuabe) time trying educate someone who dosn't want to be educated.

Teaching responsible fishkeeping happens on boards and in clubs when people arrive looking for it. These are the very same people in many cases that got the wrong info from a big box. The way i am reading it is that you only want to help them if they come to you. You won't do something that is a little inconvenient to help the person that doesn't even know they need it. Because some people think of fish as ornaments--all people do?

Like I said before, I could spend hours every single day try to educate the ignorant, but it's an uphill battle that could never be won. People who shop at big box stores, have big box perception. They don't quite fully understand most concepts. Most take one glance at me and assume Im just some college kid working there to pay his rent.. But if they took the time to come to me, and admit they need help, they would soon realize they have an amazing wealth of information free to their disposale.. Ask the user Javey here about how we met..

----------Story Time-----------

So heres a little story, about how I sold a Pacu for a 55g the other day, and felt no remorse for the idiots who bought it. This was a lady and son that I had delt with in the past..

They had returned 2 oscar fish a week ago because we sold it to them with "Ich", so they claimed. Well obviously I have scientific reasoning why PS's don't get Ich in their fish system. After some persuasive conversation I investigated to the point where I found they were feeding comet goldfish from Wal-Mart to their oscars, yet we sold them a sick fish. I tried to explain to her about Ich, and the parasite cycle.. Within 3 minutes of trying to help her, she cut me off 3 times mid-sentance. She wasn't listening to a damn word I was saying, she just wanted some medication and new oscars. At this point I was done with her..

Well she came back in yesterday, because amazingly her 2 oscars had died from Ammonia poisoning.. She still claimed we sold her unhealthy oscars, even though I tested her water and physically showed her the high level of ammonia. She failed to care, or comprehend, what I was telling her. I tried again to be nice and explain nitrifying bacteria and how to establish a tank, but she cut me off mid-sentance once again..

Her and her son continued to look around on the fish wall.. They were interested in a larger Jack Dempsey.. I tried to explain to them they get large and aggressive and would likely be the only fish in their 55g tank.. They wanted to mix it with African cichlids, but no matter what I said they didn't really care..

All this time they didn't even look at the info on the picture tags, they just kept asking me questions.. If the answer I was providing wasn't immediately what they wanted to hear, they would cut me off and begin asking new questions.

Then they found the red-bellied Pacu, which were so awesome because guess what, they look like Pirhanas! I told them immediately they didn't want that fish, as it gets up to 2 feet in length and gets about the size of a cemi-truck tire. Of course the immediate response was the growing to the size of the home myth, which I didn't even bother to explain other then "Yes, you can stunt their growth and inhumanely shorten their life span".. Yet, she cut me off before I could get deep into the topic.

She then began to tell me that she would 'upgrade' when the time came.. Which I knew was an incredible amount of horsepoo. Based solely on the fact that these 2 yokels had a 20g tank for the longest time and kept trying to keep Oscars, until they finally decided they needed to upgrade to the 'largest tank ever', a 55g.. But it was obvious, that this recent purchase was a huge financial blow, and they needed some immediate satisfaction out of this new decorative furniture in their living room.

Now I could of been a jerk(or responsible hobbyist) right there, refused the sale, and lost a long-time customer permenantly.. But Instead, I bit my lipped and spouted off the usual smart-ass comments that I give to these type of customers.. "Well you can't return it here in a few months when it gets to big.. and I am not going to guarantee the fish because you know you have ammonia in the tank".. those sort of things.. I ended up just walking away and letting one of my other associate bag up the Pacu.

Did I feel bad? Hell no, these people were complete idiots who refused to listen to me or anything I had to say.. Did they care about the accuracy of information presented in front of them? Not at all..

I am sure she will be back today, or another day, in which I dread my job and the ignorance that comes with it.. Another day in which I will seek out a new job, and leave a company that could desperately use my help.

-----------Anyways-------------

The moral of the story is advanced fish keepers stay away from these stores and the information they provide.. The information that you are trying so hard to have become accurate, is likely a 'mute' point to most fishkeepers in the first placed, since they are taught from day 1 that they should not trust information from a big box store.

and..

Beginner fish keepers either have the mentality that they want to learn, which they will do on their own, and seek out information from ALL sources, not just picture tags

..or the mentality that they want immediate answers and don't care about learning as much as they care about immediate results.


Sully.. If you need my help, let me know. Drop me a PM with specifics of what I could possibly do from within the company. I am on very good terms with my DM, and my 'fish knowledge' goes a long way with him.. I am often the appointed "fish guru" for every store in our district. If I need to bring something to his attention that he can take to the national meetings, I can throw it out there... But remember, every single error you see on the picture tags at this moment in time, I have already noted and forwarded to the appropriate person in the corporate office.. Its now her job to do something appropriate with it. Unfortunately, she knows VERY LITTLE about fish, and relies on other sources for information.

 

[WyldFya]

Ask the user Javey here about how we met..

----------Story Time-----------

You go into a story, but don't go into how you and Javey met?! JERK! I still have yet to make it in to your shop when you are actually there. DAMN THE BAD TIMING!

So heres a little story, about how I sold a Pacu for a 55g the other day, and felt no remorse for the idiots who bought it. This was a lady and son that I had delt with in the past..

They had returned 2 oscar fish a week ago because we sold it to them with "Ich", so they claimed. Well obviously I have scientific reasoning why PS's don't get Ich in their fish system. After some persuasive conversation I investigated to the point where I found they were feeding comet goldfish from Wal-Mart to their oscars, yet we sold them a sick fish. I tried to explain to her about Ich, and the parasite cycle.. Within 3 minutes of trying to help her, she cut me off 3 times mid-sentance. She wasn't listening to a damn word I was saying, she just wanted some medication and new oscars. At this point I was done with her..

Well she came back in yesterday, because amazingly her 2 oscars had died from Ammonia poisoning.. She still claimed we sold her unhealthy oscars, even though I tested her water and physically showed her the high level of ammonia. She failed to care, or comprehend, what I was telling her. I tried again to be nice and explain nitrifying bacteria and how to establish a tank, but she cut me off mid-sentance once again..

Her and her son continued to look around on the fish wall.. They were interested in a larger Jack Dempsey.. I tried to explain to them they get large and aggressive and would likely be the only fish in their 55g tank.. They wanted to mix it with African cichlids, but no matter what I said they didn't really care..

All this time they didn't even look at the info on the picture tags, they just kept asking me questions.. If the answer I was providing wasn't immediately what they wanted to hear, they would cut me off and begin asking new questions.

Then they found the red-bellied Pacu, which were so awesome because guess what, they look like Pirhanas! I told them immediately they didn't want that fish, as it gets up to 2 feet in length and gets about the size of a cemi-truck tire. Of course the immediate response was the growing to the size of the home myth, which I didn't even bother to explain other then "Yes, you can stunt their growth and inhumanely shorten their life span".. Yet, she cut me off before I could get deep into the topic.

She then began to tell me that she would 'upgrade' when the time came.. Which I knew was an incredible amount of horsepoo. Based solely on the fact that these 2 yokels had a 20g tank for the longest time and kept trying to keep Oscars, until they finally decided they needed to upgrade to the 'largest tank ever', a 55g.. But it was obvious, that this recent purchase was a huge financial blow, and they needed some immediate satisfaction out of this new decorative furniture in their living room.

Now I could of been a jerk(or responsible hobbyist) right there, refused the sale, and lost a long-time customer permenantly.. But Instead, I bit my lipped and spouted off the usual smart-ass comments that I give to these type of customers.. "Well you can't return it here in a few months when it gets to big.. and I am not going to guarantee the fish because you know you have ammonia in the tank".. those sort of things.. I ended up just walking away and letting one of my other associate bag up the Pacu.

Did I feel bad? Hell no, these people were complete idiots who refused to listen to me or anything I had to say.. Did they care about the accuracy of information presented in front of them? Not at all..

I am sure she will be back today, or another day, in which I dread my job and the ignorance that comes with it.. Another day in which I will seek out a new job, and leave a company that could desperately use my help.

Wow, talk about an arrogant, and ignorant, person. Never run into many of those in Spokane... Although I must say there are some great people that know A LOT about fish up there, between you, Andre, Barbie, and Kevin, there is just a small amount of knowledge, but more importantly experience, in Spokane.