Accuracy In Information
- Thread starter sully
- Start date
I find that consumers tend to be very ignorent when you try to tell them what they need to know on what is nesicarry on what will keep their fish healthy and happy. They flat out refuse because they don't want to spend the money on the equipment to keep their fish happy the way they should. People do this all the time and not just with fish they do it with all sorts of animals. Blindly cageing animals in habitats way to small and inadiqute for its occupents.
We need to find a way to force the consumer to do what is right and this is partly to do with what is out there from the big suppliers of betta bowls and aquariums that are under 5 gallons. this is a good idea but really what are you going to do people keep buying things because the product is there.
We need to find a way to force the consumer to do what is right and this is partly to do with what is out there from the big suppliers of betta bowls and aquariums that are under 5 gallons. this is a good idea but really what are you going to do people keep buying things because the product is there.
There isn't too much you can do about that, but for those consumers that are willing to listen, and are willing to go the extra mile to make their pet happy will be the ones that benifit from this.
I agree with the comments about consumers buying what they want--regardless of ability or desire to provide appropriate care. There are things we can change. There are things we cannot. There are things that take longer than others.
I think of Accuracy In Information as something that can be changed.
I don't want to ignore comments--and would love to discuss the responsibilities of fishkeepers. And, I will stipulate that I agree with most of what was said.
I am going to shift gears a bit, however, and ask: Do retailers have a responsibility to assure their Point-Of-Purchase Signage (advertising) is accurate and not misleading. Should a retailer be held to the standard that advertising should accurately reflect the true nature, characteristics, and point of origin of fish sold? Should representations made about the fish not be misleading or inaccurate?
Understand that i am specifically wondering about the "big boxes" or "mass merchandisers". Most lfs's simply don't get into the type of merchandising and sales techniques we see at the "Big Chains".
Let's go through another question. Is the information below accurate?
Clown Loach/Botia macrantha: 7" Length 10+gallon tank.
Angel/Pterophyllum scalare: 4" Length 10+ gallon tank
Green Severum/Heros severus: 6" Length 20+ Gallon tank
Tin Foil Barb/Barbus scwanenfeldi: 8" Length 20+ Gallon Tank
Pink Gourami/Helostoma teminckii: 6" Length 10+ Gallon Tank
Leporinus faciatus: 6" Length Salt Required 10+ Gallon Tank
Texas Cichlid/Cichlasoma cyanoguttatum: 6" Length South American 20+ Gallon
Oscar/Astronotus ocellatus: 10" Length 30+ Gallon
If the information above is correct the consumer would be getting guidance on the requirements to set-up at least an appropriately sized environment. And, an idea of what to expect growth wise from the fish.
If the information above is incorrect wouldn't it defeat even the most basic attempts to practice responsible fishcaring.
Do people that know better have an obligation to correct a situation where inaccurate or misleading information is conveyed?
Should we send letters in a focused fashion to effect a fundamental change in the way fish are sold by mass merchandisers?
I think of Accuracy In Information as something that can be changed.
I don't want to ignore comments--and would love to discuss the responsibilities of fishkeepers. And, I will stipulate that I agree with most of what was said.
I am going to shift gears a bit, however, and ask: Do retailers have a responsibility to assure their Point-Of-Purchase Signage (advertising) is accurate and not misleading. Should a retailer be held to the standard that advertising should accurately reflect the true nature, characteristics, and point of origin of fish sold? Should representations made about the fish not be misleading or inaccurate?
Understand that i am specifically wondering about the "big boxes" or "mass merchandisers". Most lfs's simply don't get into the type of merchandising and sales techniques we see at the "Big Chains".
Let's go through another question. Is the information below accurate?
Clown Loach/Botia macrantha: 7" Length 10+gallon tank.
Angel/Pterophyllum scalare: 4" Length 10+ gallon tank
Green Severum/Heros severus: 6" Length 20+ Gallon tank
Tin Foil Barb/Barbus scwanenfeldi: 8" Length 20+ Gallon Tank
Pink Gourami/Helostoma teminckii: 6" Length 10+ Gallon Tank
Leporinus faciatus: 6" Length Salt Required 10+ Gallon Tank
Texas Cichlid/Cichlasoma cyanoguttatum: 6" Length South American 20+ Gallon
Oscar/Astronotus ocellatus: 10" Length 30+ Gallon
If the information above is correct the consumer would be getting guidance on the requirements to set-up at least an appropriately sized environment. And, an idea of what to expect growth wise from the fish.
If the information above is incorrect wouldn't it defeat even the most basic attempts to practice responsible fishcaring.
Do people that know better have an obligation to correct a situation where inaccurate or misleading information is conveyed?
Should we send letters in a focused fashion to effect a fundamental change in the way fish are sold by mass merchandisers?
davo--i am no attorney. so, i can't answer that. is there an attorney in the house?
if the consumer is the recipient of inaccurate information from a source they think they can trust is improper husbandry the noobies fault? After all, they sought knowledge and were informed by a responsible source that a clown loach with several top or middle of the water column fish would be just fine in a 10+ gallon tank.
Don't more experienced keepers of fish, those with more expertise and knowledge have some culpability in irresponsible fishkeeping if they don't speak out in a unified voice to correct inaccurate information at the retail level?
The novice fishkeeper can't address an issue if they don't even realize an issue exists.
if the consumer is the recipient of inaccurate information from a source they think they can trust is improper husbandry the noobies fault? After all, they sought knowledge and were informed by a responsible source that a clown loach with several top or middle of the water column fish would be just fine in a 10+ gallon tank.
Don't more experienced keepers of fish, those with more expertise and knowledge have some culpability in irresponsible fishkeeping if they don't speak out in a unified voice to correct inaccurate information at the retail level?
The novice fishkeeper can't address an issue if they don't even realize an issue exists.
I would like to just say something.. I could go ROUNDS about this, but I shouldn't.
It is just as much the consumers fault as it is the retailer.
Why do you think there are so many 1-5g. Set-ups at these stores? Because Ignorant people want something cheap and easy. Ignorance is an impossible disease to cure. The general public is idiotic. I am sorry, but it's true, and I witness it EVERY day.
Why do you think they don't take the time to cater to the advanced hobbyist? Because the advanced fishkeepers are stuck-up snobs that I want to strangle everytime they try to dawn their lack-luster knowledge upon me. Or even better, they ignore me out of ignorance because they have the pre-conceived notion that they know more than I EVER will.
I just was told this the other day, and IT MAKES ME FURIOUS..
"Son, don't try to tell me about Arowanas.. I was breeding fish when you were probably 10 years old.."
BIG FREAKING DEAL.
Why do you think the information cards are in-accurate? Because the retailer is not trying to be discouraging to potentially new hobbyist. They talk about Maximum lengths, but do we know if its total length, head to base of tail length, or what? They talk about minimum tank sizes, but if you ask corporate those are the minimum tank sizes for when they are purchased, not lifetime care. It's irresponsible, and many things are completely innacurate (pangasius).. I have written letters, talked to district managers, and done what I could from WITHIN the company.. Do you think it will change any time soon? Not unless there is a change in the corporate office..
Granted, many things are flawed. But you should really take a look at yourself before you start chasing after a huge corporation that will basically push you aside like any major corporation would. It's sad, but true.
What's that? Your offended by me telling you (the advanced fishkeeper), that you should look at yourself when passing judgement on these corporate petstores? Well next time you walk into a PetSmart, breeze straight to the powerheads and ignore all attempts at "help, advice, or friendly fish conversation", and then right up to the register with your price-match..
Think... Think for just 1 second.. Perhaps that person is a fish person, like the type of person who would want to work at a LFS, but there are none.. Perhaps you don't know more than them.. Perhaps they actually know a great amount about fish. But you would never know, because you have your own head so far up your ass with all your 'intense internet fish knowledge' that you wouldn't take the time to find out. So maybe, just maybe, before the corporate stores bend over backwards EVEN more than they do, you could stop and think about the fact that you don't care about them, so why should they care about you?
It's jerks like this that make knowledgable people like me, quit these corporate stores and prevent bettering them in the long run. What does it all come down to? Ignorance. Ignorance of the public, Ignorance of the fishkeeper.
This is a very non-objective argument solely based on the fact that it's being held on a discussion board full of advanced fishkeepers. We seek knowledge, the general public does not. The general public is stupid, ignorant, and is on a very downhill slide.
It is just as much the consumers fault as it is the retailer.
Why do you think there are so many 1-5g. Set-ups at these stores? Because Ignorant people want something cheap and easy. Ignorance is an impossible disease to cure. The general public is idiotic. I am sorry, but it's true, and I witness it EVERY day.
Why do you think they don't take the time to cater to the advanced hobbyist? Because the advanced fishkeepers are stuck-up snobs that I want to strangle everytime they try to dawn their lack-luster knowledge upon me. Or even better, they ignore me out of ignorance because they have the pre-conceived notion that they know more than I EVER will.
I just was told this the other day, and IT MAKES ME FURIOUS..
"Son, don't try to tell me about Arowanas.. I was breeding fish when you were probably 10 years old.."
BIG FREAKING DEAL.
Why do you think the information cards are in-accurate? Because the retailer is not trying to be discouraging to potentially new hobbyist. They talk about Maximum lengths, but do we know if its total length, head to base of tail length, or what? They talk about minimum tank sizes, but if you ask corporate those are the minimum tank sizes for when they are purchased, not lifetime care. It's irresponsible, and many things are completely innacurate (pangasius).. I have written letters, talked to district managers, and done what I could from WITHIN the company.. Do you think it will change any time soon? Not unless there is a change in the corporate office..
Granted, many things are flawed. But you should really take a look at yourself before you start chasing after a huge corporation that will basically push you aside like any major corporation would. It's sad, but true.
What's that? Your offended by me telling you (the advanced fishkeeper), that you should look at yourself when passing judgement on these corporate petstores? Well next time you walk into a PetSmart, breeze straight to the powerheads and ignore all attempts at "help, advice, or friendly fish conversation", and then right up to the register with your price-match..
Think... Think for just 1 second.. Perhaps that person is a fish person, like the type of person who would want to work at a LFS, but there are none.. Perhaps you don't know more than them.. Perhaps they actually know a great amount about fish. But you would never know, because you have your own head so far up your ass with all your 'intense internet fish knowledge' that you wouldn't take the time to find out. So maybe, just maybe, before the corporate stores bend over backwards EVEN more than they do, you could stop and think about the fact that you don't care about them, so why should they care about you?
It's jerks like this that make knowledgable people like me, quit these corporate stores and prevent bettering them in the long run. What does it all come down to? Ignorance. Ignorance of the public, Ignorance of the fishkeeper.
This is a very non-objective argument solely based on the fact that it's being held on a discussion board full of advanced fishkeepers. We seek knowledge, the general public does not. The general public is stupid, ignorant, and is on a very downhill slide.
Miles;563212; said:
I have refered people here because of all of its knowledge and it is also a reason I am on MFK a lot, I do my research and pass it on. Well said Miles!
Miles;563212;563212 said:
HEY! The last time I was in a corporate pet store, I spent probably 20 minutes talking about what YOU had with your coworkers, AND I had a blast! I love talking fish, to noobs, to advanced, and in particular the breeders, like barbie (ya know the ones that make ya feel like a noob all over again!
) I understand what you are saying Miles, but I do think that steps should be taken, both on our part as you say, to take the extra ten, twenty, thirty or even hours to help people. I was at a huge sale at the LFS down here in podunksville, and spent 2 hours helping a guy with his fish, and recommending what he should do. Afterwards I was told to go clock in jokingly. I try to help, but as Miles said, the public is primarily stupid. Sometimes people listen, most the time they shrug you off. Down here we are pushing the Palouse region aquarium society to try to help increase knowledge, and to just bring all the fish nuts together to talk fish. I think we should at least try, I know its a long shot, but maybe things can change, maybe not.PS Miles, when is the next spokane meeting, I still really want to get up there for that. My friends Tracy, and Kurt went up a few months back and said they had a blast.
Radley, I am trying to understand what you said.
Am I right in assuming that I am the "advanced fishkeeper that is a stuck-up snob"? I come probably knowing less about fishkeeping than most of the members here. I readily admit my ignorance. I read posts and threads to help increase my knowledge. And, i have been keeping fish for over 30 years. I don't pretend to know it all. At the same time I have spent years on-line trying to help people that come looking for assistance with their fish. Sometimes I have answers--sometimes I don't. Often times the root of the problem resides, however, with the information that a consumer was given at the time of purchase. Misinformation provided as they were introducing themselves to fish. People come on-line to learn. They come on-line to get help. Those are the people that are ignorant. Ignorance is not an insult. They realize they don't know something. They recognize their ignorance. They are not stupid. A big difference.
Is the public ignorant--i will agree with that. Does that make all of them stupid? does that mean that the information presented to them through advertising should be false and misleading? Does that mean that a company has no obligation to present information that is accurate about the origin, nature, and characteristics of the product sold? Does that mean that it is okay to simply mislead buyers?
Does a consumer have the right to expect accurate information from a retailer? That is all this issue is about. I am personally sorry you feel like customers have treated you like dirt. That does not by default give a company a right to profit from the ignorance by presenting misleading information. If the consumer was presented accurate information would the ignorance level be increased or decreased?
Presenting accurate information will not eliminate selfishness or disregard of fish as a legitimate life form. Some people will continue to consider them as nothing more than ornaments. Many people will treat them in a manner inconsistent with the philosophy of responsible fishkeeping. I can't stop that. No amount of letters can stop that. That is not what this is about.
What can be changed, however, is the opportunity to provide responsible fish husbandry for the people that do care. Many of whom are the same people that are buying fish and killing them as a result of ignorance. An ignorance created by the seller of the fish. that is all i am after correcting. I don't think we can change humanity or the world. I do think we can change a small aspect of how fish are sold. We can take a first step. We can learn to crawl, then walk, and then run.
We can change corporations. The court of public opinion is a cruel court. One that retailers are accutely aware of. Corporations are much more aware of the protestations of the public than they are of the protestations of their employees.
I am not asking anybody to take a lot of time--just some. You don't even need to spend .39 cents on a stamp. E.mail is free. All I am asking is that responsible fishkeepers speak up to help others become the same more quickly--at less expense. With less frustration. I am optimistic--i tilt at windmills. With a little effort we often find that brickwalls have windows and doors. The task of changing behavior does not begin until someone says "no". Letters, and other efforts will help companies to take an action they woiuld not otherwise take more quickly.
Like I said--i tilt at windmills. I hope the people that take a less jaded perspective are willing to support an effort being openly endorsed across the web. I hope they take a moment to send e.mails and letters like many other hobbyists that belong to on-line communities.
Am I right in assuming that I am the "advanced fishkeeper that is a stuck-up snob"? I come probably knowing less about fishkeeping than most of the members here. I readily admit my ignorance. I read posts and threads to help increase my knowledge. And, i have been keeping fish for over 30 years. I don't pretend to know it all. At the same time I have spent years on-line trying to help people that come looking for assistance with their fish. Sometimes I have answers--sometimes I don't. Often times the root of the problem resides, however, with the information that a consumer was given at the time of purchase. Misinformation provided as they were introducing themselves to fish. People come on-line to learn. They come on-line to get help. Those are the people that are ignorant. Ignorance is not an insult. They realize they don't know something. They recognize their ignorance. They are not stupid. A big difference.
Is the public ignorant--i will agree with that. Does that make all of them stupid? does that mean that the information presented to them through advertising should be false and misleading? Does that mean that a company has no obligation to present information that is accurate about the origin, nature, and characteristics of the product sold? Does that mean that it is okay to simply mislead buyers?
Does a consumer have the right to expect accurate information from a retailer? That is all this issue is about. I am personally sorry you feel like customers have treated you like dirt. That does not by default give a company a right to profit from the ignorance by presenting misleading information. If the consumer was presented accurate information would the ignorance level be increased or decreased?
Presenting accurate information will not eliminate selfishness or disregard of fish as a legitimate life form. Some people will continue to consider them as nothing more than ornaments. Many people will treat them in a manner inconsistent with the philosophy of responsible fishkeeping. I can't stop that. No amount of letters can stop that. That is not what this is about.
What can be changed, however, is the opportunity to provide responsible fish husbandry for the people that do care. Many of whom are the same people that are buying fish and killing them as a result of ignorance. An ignorance created by the seller of the fish. that is all i am after correcting. I don't think we can change humanity or the world. I do think we can change a small aspect of how fish are sold. We can take a first step. We can learn to crawl, then walk, and then run.
We can change corporations. The court of public opinion is a cruel court. One that retailers are accutely aware of. Corporations are much more aware of the protestations of the public than they are of the protestations of their employees.
I am not asking anybody to take a lot of time--just some. You don't even need to spend .39 cents on a stamp. E.mail is free. All I am asking is that responsible fishkeepers speak up to help others become the same more quickly--at less expense. With less frustration. I am optimistic--i tilt at windmills. With a little effort we often find that brickwalls have windows and doors. The task of changing behavior does not begin until someone says "no". Letters, and other efforts will help companies to take an action they woiuld not otherwise take more quickly.
Like I said--i tilt at windmills. I hope the people that take a less jaded perspective are willing to support an effort being openly endorsed across the web. I hope they take a moment to send e.mails and letters like many other hobbyists that belong to on-line communities.
