sully;653423; said:
Keep it up guys!! Help sully out! I'm trying my best to get people educated from the inside and lets get stuff fixed so the fish and the fishkeepers all benefit.
Accuracy In Information
- Thread starter sully
- Start date
Keep it up guys!! Help sully out! I'm trying my best to get people educated from the inside and lets get stuff fixed so the fish and the fishkeepers all benefit.
Photos of the POP Signage (readable--lol--you would be surprised at some of the stuff we got for PETsMART). or the information transcribed into the format of a spreadsheet at our site (http://www.noclownsinacube.net/fish_chart.html)
PetCo, Petland, WalMart.
PetCo, Petland, WalMart.
Round 2 is beginning. lol. As we examine information with other retailers some common problems seem to exist. Here is a letter recently mailed to PETCO. It once again address a very common theme--accuracy of information. We ask hobbyists to join us in sending letters and e.mails to discuss the importance of information and its relationship to the practice of Responsible Husbandry.
------------------------------------
1/31/07
Mr. Jim Myers
Chief Executive Officer
PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc.
9125 Rehco Road
San Diego, CA 92121
Dear Mr. Myers,
I am a fishkeeper. I have shopped your stores for many years. More recently I began to study the species-specific information contained in your Point-Of-Purchase Signage. Within the past several weeks I have also scrutinized the information provided at corporate web site.
During the 4th quarter of 2006 an organization of fishkeeping hobbyists was born. Our focus is to encourage retailers like PETCO to provide information that accurately describes the nature, origin, and characteristics of fish sold. We believe hobbyists will be able to more adequately practice responsible husbandry with better information. Responsible Husbandry. Humane Treatment. These are the two very simple and fundamental goals that underpin our effort. They are two simple goals that PETCO seemingly embraces as evidenced by the PETCO Foundation.
An interesting disparity exists between the Point-Of-Purchase Signage and On-Line information. In-store there is no mention of tank sizes required for the species sold. On-line tank size suggestions are made. The size of an aquarium is one of the most important elements required for the practice of responsible husbandry. The importance of tank size is obviously recognized. It is significant enough to publish on-line. It should be considered important enough to include with in-store advertising.
Some of the suggested tank sizes are interesting. The tank size suggested for the Tiger Barb at your site is 10-gallons. Many authoritative resources suggest something significantly larger. In fact Aquarium Fish by Schleiwen suggests a tank of at least 32. The suggestion by one of your sources of fish information is significantly larger than the size advertised. There are other instances of this issue.
On-line descriptions of environments conducive to the species being sold are provided. Hiding Spots is a phrase utilized in many of the descriptions. The same phrase is used to describe a parameter for plant dwelling fish as with cave dwelling fish. Yet, the definition of hiding spot for each is radically different. Indeed, a hiding spot utilized by one will often be a hiding spot shunned by the other. Based upon the information provided your customers may mistakenly believe they are providing a suitable environment for the fish purchased at PETCO when they are in actuality not meeting the needs of the species purchased at all.
Fish size. In-store and on-line information is sometimes contradictory. For example, the Hypostomus plecostomus is listed as a 4-12 fish at one brick and mortar location. At another store it is listed as an 18" species. On-line it is a 24 fish. Only one can be correct. Other instances of this situation exist.
Jim, it is my hope that PETCO examines POP signage and on-line advertising to assure consistency and accuracy. Responsible Husbandry and Humane Treatment start at a store. Neither can be practiced by hobbyists without accurate information.
Respectfully,
----------------------
The e.mail method for PETCO is form based at their website. The link to this form is:
http://www.petco.com/petco_Page_PC_contactus_Nav_166.aspx?cm_re=051806-_-ftr-_-contact
e.mail or snail mail. please help us voice our concerns with your participation.
Thanks,
sully
ps. We have a topic in the public area of our message board that we are hoping for some input. It is a question concerning consistency of information being presented. We would love to know what you think about the subject.
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/forum/index.php?topic=132.0
We are almost through with the final review of species info with PETsMART. Just got the last of their revised data Tuesday of this week. We will say something of a more specific nature soon.
------------------------------------
1/31/07
Mr. Jim Myers
Chief Executive Officer
PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc.
9125 Rehco Road
San Diego, CA 92121
Dear Mr. Myers,
I am a fishkeeper. I have shopped your stores for many years. More recently I began to study the species-specific information contained in your Point-Of-Purchase Signage. Within the past several weeks I have also scrutinized the information provided at corporate web site.
During the 4th quarter of 2006 an organization of fishkeeping hobbyists was born. Our focus is to encourage retailers like PETCO to provide information that accurately describes the nature, origin, and characteristics of fish sold. We believe hobbyists will be able to more adequately practice responsible husbandry with better information. Responsible Husbandry. Humane Treatment. These are the two very simple and fundamental goals that underpin our effort. They are two simple goals that PETCO seemingly embraces as evidenced by the PETCO Foundation.
An interesting disparity exists between the Point-Of-Purchase Signage and On-Line information. In-store there is no mention of tank sizes required for the species sold. On-line tank size suggestions are made. The size of an aquarium is one of the most important elements required for the practice of responsible husbandry. The importance of tank size is obviously recognized. It is significant enough to publish on-line. It should be considered important enough to include with in-store advertising.
Some of the suggested tank sizes are interesting. The tank size suggested for the Tiger Barb at your site is 10-gallons. Many authoritative resources suggest something significantly larger. In fact Aquarium Fish by Schleiwen suggests a tank of at least 32. The suggestion by one of your sources of fish information is significantly larger than the size advertised. There are other instances of this issue.
On-line descriptions of environments conducive to the species being sold are provided. Hiding Spots is a phrase utilized in many of the descriptions. The same phrase is used to describe a parameter for plant dwelling fish as with cave dwelling fish. Yet, the definition of hiding spot for each is radically different. Indeed, a hiding spot utilized by one will often be a hiding spot shunned by the other. Based upon the information provided your customers may mistakenly believe they are providing a suitable environment for the fish purchased at PETCO when they are in actuality not meeting the needs of the species purchased at all.
Fish size. In-store and on-line information is sometimes contradictory. For example, the Hypostomus plecostomus is listed as a 4-12 fish at one brick and mortar location. At another store it is listed as an 18" species. On-line it is a 24 fish. Only one can be correct. Other instances of this situation exist.
Jim, it is my hope that PETCO examines POP signage and on-line advertising to assure consistency and accuracy. Responsible Husbandry and Humane Treatment start at a store. Neither can be practiced by hobbyists without accurate information.
Respectfully,
----------------------
The e.mail method for PETCO is form based at their website. The link to this form is:
http://www.petco.com/petco_Page_PC_contactus_Nav_166.aspx?cm_re=051806-_-ftr-_-contact
e.mail or snail mail. please help us voice our concerns with your participation.
Thanks,
sully
ps. We have a topic in the public area of our message board that we are hoping for some input. It is a question concerning consistency of information being presented. We would love to know what you think about the subject.
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/forum/index.php?topic=132.0
We are almost through with the final review of species info with PETsMART. Just got the last of their revised data Tuesday of this week. We will say something of a more specific nature soon.
We seemed to have wrapped up our end of things earlier this week. Anything left to do is firmly in the hands of PETsMART.
Here is a copy of the e.mail sent summarizing where we are with the review process.
Nick,
I have enjoyed the process of the review. Albeit longer than either of us expected. The people at No Clowns In A Cube.net appreciate the willingness exhibited by PETsMART to accept input from the hobbyist community. We appreciate that the information from many "authoritative resources" was examined.
I spent several hours last evening perusing the responses this discussion has generated at on-line fishkeeping communities across the web. I wanted to be certain the basics of the discussion were reviewed so that I did not lose sight of hobbyist concerns on a generalized basis as the details of species-specific information were reviewed.
1). Point-Of-Origin: A topic that was originally discussed during our e.mails and conversations. The use of Plannogram information on in-store signage is often misunderstood. In several instances it is often misleading. An easy fix that was discussed was the use of "New World" to define the North American, Central American, and South American species often clumped under the existing "South American" definition. And, the movement of obvious South American or Central American species from the "Tropical Community" tag into this category would be helpful.
And, a species that clearly demonstrates the potential misunderstanding by a consumer would be the Carinotetraodon travancoricus as a Tropical Community fish when it is indeed best suited for a species specific tank.
Or, a change that would not destroy the use of plan-o-gram information would be the simple inclusion of an additional "Species Origination" line of copy. A line that is used by many of your competitors.
Our early conversations led me to believe this issue would be rectified. Our discussion Wednesday of this week left me in doubt.
2). Species Size: As discussed, if the changes you have noted during the exchange of information are implemented there will be a near universal correction of the problem. The obvious exceptions have been discussed and noted.
3) Tank Size: Dramatic changes have been seen in your revised data. All of which are positive. There is still a surprising contradiction between your sizes (once again, substantially larger tank sizes are now being used by PETsMART) and those listed by the source Linda Scott mentioned in her e.mails to hobbyists as the reference PETsMART utilizes as the basis for Point-Of-Purchase signage data for a limited number of species.
Hopefully you will take one last look at the tank sizes and upgrade many of them.
At worst we hope that a line of copy to the point that as the fish grows to "Adult" sizes a larger tank is required. Especially in those cases the stated length of the fish (based upon authoritative resources) equals or exceeds the depth of the suggested tank front to back. A size derived from exterior dimensions.
The Betta issue is a discussion that is more wide ranging than PETsMART. As a result, in our minds, it is unfair to target specifically to PETsMART.
4). Suitability of species sold: The obvious species is the Pangasius Sutchii. As we review your suggestions of species size and tank size we still note a severe departure from that data provided by recognized "authoritative resources". We question how suitable the species can be for a mass merchandiser to sell if the mass merchandiser believes their data is a better representation than that provided by the scientific community. More specific concern is created when the representations of sizes still remain far smaller than documented reality. Yes, That fish will not grow to its potential size in the confines of the tank suggested. We question whether responsible husbandry and humane treatment is being actively promoted through this type of sales approach.
5). Diet and Décor: Obviously mostly in order.
6). Tank Strata. In some instances it is different than the "authoritative resources' discuss. In other instances we have difficulty understanding where the information was derived. And, as we discussed so many factors are involved in that definition that a captive (tank) environment will rarely if ever reflect that behavior. In many instances the depth of the water column in home aquaria is many meters less than the depth of the strata as seen in native habitats--let alone the total depth of the water column found in native habitats. Are the species being sold with this line of information going to live up to the representation made in home aquaria? Are false expectations being set-up in the mind of the consumer?
It goes back to one of original points of information that, while not inaccurate, becomes very confusing when utilized out of context.
7). Aquarium Salt as a "Required" item. I am gratified to see it nearly gone from signage. I understand your perspective on others. Hopefully you can understand why we will question the use of "Aquarium Salt Required" for the remaining species. Especially as it relates to the Leporinus Fasciatus.
Nick, once again, thank-you for the time you took to discuss the issues with us. And, thank-you for the review of the information we provided.
Respectfully,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
we will post the final result at our site when possible. don't forget to send PETCO e.mails
Here is a copy of the e.mail sent summarizing where we are with the review process.
Nick,
I have enjoyed the process of the review. Albeit longer than either of us expected. The people at No Clowns In A Cube.net appreciate the willingness exhibited by PETsMART to accept input from the hobbyist community. We appreciate that the information from many "authoritative resources" was examined.
I spent several hours last evening perusing the responses this discussion has generated at on-line fishkeeping communities across the web. I wanted to be certain the basics of the discussion were reviewed so that I did not lose sight of hobbyist concerns on a generalized basis as the details of species-specific information were reviewed.
1). Point-Of-Origin: A topic that was originally discussed during our e.mails and conversations. The use of Plannogram information on in-store signage is often misunderstood. In several instances it is often misleading. An easy fix that was discussed was the use of "New World" to define the North American, Central American, and South American species often clumped under the existing "South American" definition. And, the movement of obvious South American or Central American species from the "Tropical Community" tag into this category would be helpful.
And, a species that clearly demonstrates the potential misunderstanding by a consumer would be the Carinotetraodon travancoricus as a Tropical Community fish when it is indeed best suited for a species specific tank.
Or, a change that would not destroy the use of plan-o-gram information would be the simple inclusion of an additional "Species Origination" line of copy. A line that is used by many of your competitors.
Our early conversations led me to believe this issue would be rectified. Our discussion Wednesday of this week left me in doubt.
2). Species Size: As discussed, if the changes you have noted during the exchange of information are implemented there will be a near universal correction of the problem. The obvious exceptions have been discussed and noted.
3) Tank Size: Dramatic changes have been seen in your revised data. All of which are positive. There is still a surprising contradiction between your sizes (once again, substantially larger tank sizes are now being used by PETsMART) and those listed by the source Linda Scott mentioned in her e.mails to hobbyists as the reference PETsMART utilizes as the basis for Point-Of-Purchase signage data for a limited number of species.
Hopefully you will take one last look at the tank sizes and upgrade many of them.
At worst we hope that a line of copy to the point that as the fish grows to "Adult" sizes a larger tank is required. Especially in those cases the stated length of the fish (based upon authoritative resources) equals or exceeds the depth of the suggested tank front to back. A size derived from exterior dimensions.
The Betta issue is a discussion that is more wide ranging than PETsMART. As a result, in our minds, it is unfair to target specifically to PETsMART.
4). Suitability of species sold: The obvious species is the Pangasius Sutchii. As we review your suggestions of species size and tank size we still note a severe departure from that data provided by recognized "authoritative resources". We question how suitable the species can be for a mass merchandiser to sell if the mass merchandiser believes their data is a better representation than that provided by the scientific community. More specific concern is created when the representations of sizes still remain far smaller than documented reality. Yes, That fish will not grow to its potential size in the confines of the tank suggested. We question whether responsible husbandry and humane treatment is being actively promoted through this type of sales approach.
5). Diet and Décor: Obviously mostly in order.
6). Tank Strata. In some instances it is different than the "authoritative resources' discuss. In other instances we have difficulty understanding where the information was derived. And, as we discussed so many factors are involved in that definition that a captive (tank) environment will rarely if ever reflect that behavior. In many instances the depth of the water column in home aquaria is many meters less than the depth of the strata as seen in native habitats--let alone the total depth of the water column found in native habitats. Are the species being sold with this line of information going to live up to the representation made in home aquaria? Are false expectations being set-up in the mind of the consumer?
It goes back to one of original points of information that, while not inaccurate, becomes very confusing when utilized out of context.
7). Aquarium Salt as a "Required" item. I am gratified to see it nearly gone from signage. I understand your perspective on others. Hopefully you can understand why we will question the use of "Aquarium Salt Required" for the remaining species. Especially as it relates to the Leporinus Fasciatus.
Nick, once again, thank-you for the time you took to discuss the issues with us. And, thank-you for the review of the information we provided.
Respectfully,
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
we will post the final result at our site when possible. don't forget to send PETCO e.mails
Just a quick note to let everyone know that while we have not been as visible we have been active.
For those of you that have been curious about revisions made by PETsMART the new signage should have begun to show up in some stores. How they are rolling it out is a different discussion, which will be talked about soon.
Here is a link to a quick and dirty spreadsheet presentation at No Clowns In A Cube.net. We have been playing with a database presentation of the data--it will be neat and it will be soon.
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/fish_chart.html
There are two types of PETsMART entries. One is simply PETsMART Revision. In instances the PETsMART line is indeed a Revision. Our data was sufficiently incomplete--or absent--that we utilized the most recent data without differentiating between the previous and current iterations.
You will also notice the inclusion of data from a couple of the web based and catalog retailers. At the same time you will also see the beginnings of the inclusion of data from "Pet Connection Mfg". Pet Connection Mfg is the company that provides those incredibly incomplete--and often inaccurate signs for the lfs market.
We have significantly more species form both the retailers and Pet Connection Mfg to add. We want to be as accurate and thorough as possible so it will take another 30-60 days to get a more comprehensive look at the retail market. It is a great beginning.
We will be resuming web-based efforts asking for letters very soon. We needed to back-up a bit and get better organized. Thanks for all your support so far--we will need much more in the future.
sully
PS. Sorry for the link. There is just no other way for the information to be easily presented. Site admins/mods please send us a 468 x 60 banner for inclusion in our banner programit is freelol.
For those of you that have been curious about revisions made by PETsMART the new signage should have begun to show up in some stores. How they are rolling it out is a different discussion, which will be talked about soon.
Here is a link to a quick and dirty spreadsheet presentation at No Clowns In A Cube.net. We have been playing with a database presentation of the data--it will be neat and it will be soon.
http://www.noclownsinacube.net/fish_chart.html
There are two types of PETsMART entries. One is simply PETsMART Revision. In instances the PETsMART line is indeed a Revision. Our data was sufficiently incomplete--or absent--that we utilized the most recent data without differentiating between the previous and current iterations.
You will also notice the inclusion of data from a couple of the web based and catalog retailers. At the same time you will also see the beginnings of the inclusion of data from "Pet Connection Mfg". Pet Connection Mfg is the company that provides those incredibly incomplete--and often inaccurate signs for the lfs market.
We have significantly more species form both the retailers and Pet Connection Mfg to add. We want to be as accurate and thorough as possible so it will take another 30-60 days to get a more comprehensive look at the retail market. It is a great beginning.
We will be resuming web-based efforts asking for letters very soon. We needed to back-up a bit and get better organized. Thanks for all your support so far--we will need much more in the future.
sully
PS. Sorry for the link. There is just no other way for the information to be easily presented. Site admins/mods please send us a 468 x 60 banner for inclusion in our banner programit is freelol.
An update –it seems to be the week for those.
We tried a slightly different approach with PETCO. We combined the public letter writing campaign, which so many of you participated in, with behind the scenes letter writing, phone calls and e.mails. In part a different tactic to make sure everyone does not burn out sending letters, in part to accommodate the schedules of people atNCIAC.net (all volunteer groups are tough—lol).
We received an e.mail from PETCO today that is very encouraging. Here is the PETCO response.
Tom,
We would be glad to work with you. What do you have in mind?
Thanks,
Tom
Thomas M. Edling, DVM, MSpVM
Director, Veterinary Medicine
PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc.
"At PETCO Animals Always Come First, and Our People Make it Happen" Happen"
Nominal editing of phone numbers has occurred.
The information is not changed yet. Yet, it is an indication of openness and willingness to examine change. As always, we will keep the hobbyists that have supported our efforts up to date.
PETCO is to be commended for their response. All of you should be commended for your support. Nothing happens without the fishkeepers that make this hobby such a great pursuit.
Thanks!
sully
We tried a slightly different approach with PETCO. We combined the public letter writing campaign, which so many of you participated in, with behind the scenes letter writing, phone calls and e.mails. In part a different tactic to make sure everyone does not burn out sending letters, in part to accommodate the schedules of people atNCIAC.net (all volunteer groups are tough—lol).
We received an e.mail from PETCO today that is very encouraging. Here is the PETCO response.
Tom,
We would be glad to work with you. What do you have in mind?
Thanks,
Tom
Thomas M. Edling, DVM, MSpVM
Director, Veterinary Medicine
PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc.
"At PETCO Animals Always Come First, and Our People Make it Happen" Happen"
Nominal editing of phone numbers has occurred.
The information is not changed yet. Yet, it is an indication of openness and willingness to examine change. As always, we will keep the hobbyists that have supported our efforts up to date.
PETCO is to be commended for their response. All of you should be commended for your support. Nothing happens without the fishkeepers that make this hobby such a great pursuit.
Thanks!
sully
Sorry if I miss anything I should be commenting on, it's late, and my eyes are bleary, but I thought I'd add a score for humanity...
One day, I was prowling the fish dept at wal-mart (I lurk there often) checking out the fish, while a woman and her son were looking as well, I listened to them talk for a few minutes (standing a few feet behind) and while I was waiting for an associate to get off of his or her duff and get over to that section, I began talking shop with the other customers.
Woman: Look at those cute little *checks tag* pacus!! how cute!!
Me: I just went down to the zoo a couple weeks ago and saw a few of those as big as a trashcan lid!!
Woman: Wow!! is that normal for them??
Me: Yup, happens more often than you'd think, being that small now.
We talked about the platties, and swordfish, and she came across the mean-looking dragon gobies. She asked me about those. I of course admitted that I didn't know much about them...just that they were brackish.
By then, she'd noticed the cute puffers. And, after asking me what all are brackish, how big they get, what size tank, compatibility. I realized I'd been there over an hour, and even had the employee suggesting that I should work there.
Bottom line, SOMETIMES, you'll come across someone who gives a damn, and wants to do it right. Other times, it'll take the store admitting that they have no clue first.
Then again, I'm sure there'll always be at least one person who buys an arowana for their 55, or a clown knife for a 35 hex (true story) and feed it brine shrimp cubes, then wonder why he eats his tankmates. Or 2 goldfish for a 1 gallon biorb.
As long as there's false information out there, someone's going to think they know better than anyone else, because they looked at 3 sites, and even though the information was wrong, they did their "research" and should be able to buy their fish, or that the petstore knows everything, or nothing (depending on your view) You're going to find fish like Loki the clown knife, who was stuck in a 35 hex for 6 YEARS before coming to me and my 75, and then on to E_americanus and his larger tank (can't remember gallonage) or even Pearl and Sherbert, a pearlscale and fantail goldfish, who were kept in a 1 gallon biorb for a couple of years, or even Demjor19 & Karajo's Mowgli, their pacu whom they found, she had spent most of her life in a 55 gallon, and was only fed algae wafers!!
I know it's hard thinking of all those fish living in cramped homes or shoddy care, but imagine them being offered up to the first taker, or highest bidder, because they're so hungry they eat their tankmates, or their BOWL is too small for them to build their swimming muscles and they can't swim, or they just got too big, and inconveniant.
Then, you meet these amazing creatures, and to know that they were the victim of ignorance for YEARS, it just breaks your heart!!
One day, I was prowling the fish dept at wal-mart (I lurk there often) checking out the fish, while a woman and her son were looking as well, I listened to them talk for a few minutes (standing a few feet behind) and while I was waiting for an associate to get off of his or her duff and get over to that section, I began talking shop with the other customers.
Woman: Look at those cute little *checks tag* pacus!! how cute!!
Me: I just went down to the zoo a couple weeks ago and saw a few of those as big as a trashcan lid!!
Woman: Wow!! is that normal for them??
Me: Yup, happens more often than you'd think, being that small now.
We talked about the platties, and swordfish, and she came across the mean-looking dragon gobies. She asked me about those. I of course admitted that I didn't know much about them...just that they were brackish.
By then, she'd noticed the cute puffers. And, after asking me what all are brackish, how big they get, what size tank, compatibility. I realized I'd been there over an hour, and even had the employee suggesting that I should work there.
Bottom line, SOMETIMES, you'll come across someone who gives a damn, and wants to do it right. Other times, it'll take the store admitting that they have no clue first.
Then again, I'm sure there'll always be at least one person who buys an arowana for their 55, or a clown knife for a 35 hex (true story) and feed it brine shrimp cubes, then wonder why he eats his tankmates. Or 2 goldfish for a 1 gallon biorb.
As long as there's false information out there, someone's going to think they know better than anyone else, because they looked at 3 sites, and even though the information was wrong, they did their "research" and should be able to buy their fish, or that the petstore knows everything, or nothing (depending on your view) You're going to find fish like Loki the clown knife, who was stuck in a 35 hex for 6 YEARS before coming to me and my 75, and then on to E_americanus and his larger tank (can't remember gallonage) or even Pearl and Sherbert, a pearlscale and fantail goldfish, who were kept in a 1 gallon biorb for a couple of years, or even Demjor19 & Karajo's Mowgli, their pacu whom they found, she had spent most of her life in a 55 gallon, and was only fed algae wafers!!
I know it's hard thinking of all those fish living in cramped homes or shoddy care, but imagine them being offered up to the first taker, or highest bidder, because they're so hungry they eat their tankmates, or their BOWL is too small for them to build their swimming muscles and they can't swim, or they just got too big, and inconveniant.
Then, you meet these amazing creatures, and to know that they were the victim of ignorance for YEARS, it just breaks your heart!!
