AKC style for W/C Cichlids and there Generations
- Thread starter Otherone
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Dogofwar I apprieciate and understand where you are coming from. I know that if I slack on changeing up foods all the time my fish "lose" there good color and if. I change it up they "get" there color back. All opinions aside the FACT that I have raised countless salvini fry only to use them as feeders is what I am going off of. If you would like to give it a go then go ahead. I will purchase the fry from you. But after 5 years about 9 males and probably 40 females intentionally purchased from even diffrent states I can't bring out there red. And I know these fish are pulled from the tabasca lagoons and belize with overall red bellies cosistantly. I at one point put a 4 foot c/f fixture on my 55 for over a year. 4x65 watt, two 10,000k and 2 combo 50/50 actinic/10,000k, with lunar lights to mimic the moons diffrent patterns. I think the only thing I haven't done is take all the money I've spent looking for good looking females to put with my males. And go and collect fish that's are not inbred.
I'm not trying to sound holier then now. But dude trust me I have tried everything I know to try. I'm fairly new to the forum but I have been keeping fish for 17 years. I keep a reef, two planted tanks and a handfull of cichlids right now. But I have been around the block and back several times. If you have any ideas of how I might accomplish my goal please shoot me a pm and I would be more then happy to try anything I haven't already tried. I do apprieciate your opinion and any ideas. And please don't take my word as harsh in content, as they are not sent that way.
Anthony,
I'm not trying to sound holier then now. But dude trust me I have tried everything I know to try. I'm fairly new to the forum but I have been keeping fish for 17 years. I keep a reef, two planted tanks and a handfull of cichlids right now. But I have been around the block and back several times. If you have any ideas of how I might accomplish my goal please shoot me a pm and I would be more then happy to try anything I haven't already tried. I do apprieciate your opinion and any ideas. And please don't take my word as harsh in content, as they are not sent that way.
Anthony,
Let me add that just like you can breed in slight traits such as those from our discus, you can dumb down trates as well. Although not completely lost, not easily found again. My efforts have proven that to me.
No doubt at all that you take good care of your fish and that you know how to breed salvini!
But I still don't believe that the key to developing "super red" salvini is a magic bullet ultra-pure perfect fish. It's the hard work...over many generations...of line breeding.
People are quick to scoff at flowerhorns. I was. But to understand the skill that goes into developing a stable strain with desired traits can literally take years. No different than developing strains of angelfish...bettas...discus...fancy livebearers, etc. It's a very different skill set than most, even advanced, cichlid-keepers possess.
Matt
But I still don't believe that the key to developing "super red" salvini is a magic bullet ultra-pure perfect fish. It's the hard work...over many generations...of line breeding.
People are quick to scoff at flowerhorns. I was. But to understand the skill that goes into developing a stable strain with desired traits can literally take years. No different than developing strains of angelfish...bettas...discus...fancy livebearers, etc. It's a very different skill set than most, even advanced, cichlid-keepers possess.
Matt
fish_n_vw;3814274; said:
And I get that completely. But wouldent it be easier to just start with some wild caught ones that already have the gene strong in there line. Especially after 5 years of efforts. At first I thought "awsome you can get really nice red out of these guys. All it will take 3-5 generations". So after about the second year I made it my goal to "pull" these colors out. Well here I am 5 years later no closer then I was 5 years ago. I'm just saying it has been a long, fun, and now disapointing and discouraging road. I have decided to stop breeding salvinis that are farmed and start looking for wild caught. I plan on purchasing 10 young and getting a few pairs. I could do with first or second generation from wild caught. But I would love to try wild ones myself.
I don't have the "skills" that it takes to come up with the hybrid fish or any off the discus strains. I do see this as a real skill. But in the case of the powder blue discus Takashi Amano did a little write up in his nature world aquarims book 1 about how these came to be. He says there is 1 in 1million fish that carry the gene and with that one fish that his friend would make an all blue discus. Well he was right it has been done. But how long did it take? I'm done trying to find the gene in fish and waisting time playing with genetics and line breeding for something that someone else eats every day. Its a bit diffrent. I get the skill that goes into it. Just not my style to undo mother natures perfection. Imo that one blue discus in the million green ones would be a beautiful sight, and that much more of a gem.
I don't want to argue that its not possible because it is and I know that. I'm just tierd of fighting the up hill battle.
Anthony
I don't have the "skills" that it takes to come up with the hybrid fish or any off the discus strains. I do see this as a real skill. But in the case of the powder blue discus Takashi Amano did a little write up in his nature world aquarims book 1 about how these came to be. He says there is 1 in 1million fish that carry the gene and with that one fish that his friend would make an all blue discus. Well he was right it has been done. But how long did it take? I'm done trying to find the gene in fish and waisting time playing with genetics and line breeding for something that someone else eats every day. Its a bit diffrent. I get the skill that goes into it. Just not my style to undo mother natures perfection. Imo that one blue discus in the million green ones would be a beautiful sight, and that much more of a gem.
I don't want to argue that its not possible because it is and I know that. I'm just tierd of fighting the up hill battle.
Anthony
Also salvinis have a pretty wide distribution and most salvinis in the hobby are bred from salvinis from all of them mixed and farmed. The ones that are collected from the tabasca lagoons and belize have the brighter red in most all. Those are the ones I personally find most desierable and I think salvinis are a underated fish. If I can produce large amounts of these "red" ones I feel more hobbiests would give them the apprieciation they deserve.
reverse;3810158; said:
I also said my preference is wc. You took what I said out of context. If all you can do is criticize and not contribute, then don't bother posting.
fish_n_vw, all you're talking about is selective breeding and there's only two things that are required to do that; an eye for what you like and patience to grow out fry.
Answered - beating a dead horse - As it would appear to me that owning a healthy affordable fish is more disiarable . I do own wild characins - in many cases it's the only way to get them. Are W/C or their offspring desirable to the average hobbiest - It would no't appear so. Do W/C fish command a higher pricetag - only because of collection cost compensation. Should their siblings command a higher price tag - no.
As for the Trophy Hobbiest - the value only lies within that person. As for the whole F- grading system it shares no real marketable value. Will their be a system in place to track genetic siblings - not in any forseeable future, only if the cichlids make it to the endagered spieces list. - Once again thank you.
As for the Trophy Hobbiest - the value only lies within that person. As for the whole F- grading system it shares no real marketable value. Will their be a system in place to track genetic siblings - not in any forseeable future, only if the cichlids make it to the endagered spieces list. - Once again thank you.
Selective breeding is a way to "pull" the color that you find most desierable. I am no longer trying to selectively breed. Instead I would like the wild coloration of the fish found in two specific locations. Like the red mota vrs the gold. Two seperate locations, two seprate color varients, same fish.
