AKC style for W/C Cichlids and there Generations
- Thread starter Otherone
- Start date
Otherone;3809034; said:
That's exactly the point, the F# system is just a way of tracking generations after the original specimens (breeders), it has nothing to do with the status (wild or other) or the genetic make up of those original specimens (breeders).
Someone brought up a point to me last night, why not micro-chip fish like they do in the Asian Arrowana industry? Good idea right? That way we know the origin of the fish, you just have to pass the scanner over them and the database pulls the info for you. Problem is that most fish don't have the value that the Asian Arro's have and the cost to pull it off would be astronomical. Also, where is the accountability? Who would stop someone from giving false information?
irishfan, you should not keep any fish at all. None of the fish we keep occur naturally in an aquarium. Show me one fish that has ever decided to jump in a glass box and be held captive by a human.
Wild caught is not a new marketing gimmick. For people who care about genetic diversity, premium undiluted species characteristics, and overall better quality fish wild caught is the way to go.
For the average person who goes to the big box pet chains to buy anything other than supplies, it probably doesn't matter one bit. For me, and a lot of MFKers, the less inbred a fish the better.
In regard to most of the Florida fish farm industry, most of their livestock is not wild caught. Wild caught stocks by Ken, Rusty, Conkel, Rapps, and others are more specialized. A good comparison would be Anheuser-Busch vs. a micro brewery.
It's hobbyists who care enough about species survival who end up doing something to have an area protected from overfishing. Land developers don't give a rat's behind about what lives in the stream, pond, lake, etc. on the land they want to build on.
Wild caught is not a new marketing gimmick. For people who care about genetic diversity, premium undiluted species characteristics, and overall better quality fish wild caught is the way to go.
For the average person who goes to the big box pet chains to buy anything other than supplies, it probably doesn't matter one bit. For me, and a lot of MFKers, the less inbred a fish the better.
In regard to most of the Florida fish farm industry, most of their livestock is not wild caught. Wild caught stocks by Ken, Rusty, Conkel, Rapps, and others are more specialized. A good comparison would be Anheuser-Busch vs. a micro brewery.
It's hobbyists who care enough about species survival who end up doing something to have an area protected from overfishing. Land developers don't give a rat's behind about what lives in the stream, pond, lake, etc. on the land they want to build on.
nolapete;3809204; said:
Would you agree that an F-1 or F-2 is "good enough" for overall better quality fish? If not, please provide some supporting evidence for your asseretion that wild fish are better quality. I'm sure you're away of how genetics work, so there must be some other reason for your assertion (unless, of course, you consider F-1s good enough).
I agree with most of everything else you said. I'm not fond of most developers myself!
irishfan, you should not keep any fish at all. None of the fish we keep occur naturally in an aquarium. Show me one fish that has ever decided to jump in a glass box and be held captive by a human.
Its cool if you dont like me or my opinions...thats fine.
But I am confused by your point of none of the fish naturally occuring in an aquarium?
Ill ask you to show me any fish that has volunteered to leave the wild so that he can be in your tank???
What im saying is this...WC fish are used to 1000's of gallons and "real" freedom...then you take them and put them into your 90...is that fair?
As opposed to getting a fish, not from the wild, raised in a tank...more fair to me.
I wont sit here and argue how my fish is inbred or how they originated from the wild because those are irrelevant points. But thanks.
Its cool if you dont like me or my opinions...thats fine.
But I am confused by your point of none of the fish naturally occuring in an aquarium?
Ill ask you to show me any fish that has volunteered to leave the wild so that he can be in your tank???
What im saying is this...WC fish are used to 1000's of gallons and "real" freedom...then you take them and put them into your 90...is that fair?
As opposed to getting a fish, not from the wild, raised in a tank...more fair to me.
I wont sit here and argue how my fish is inbred or how they originated from the wild because those are irrelevant points. But thanks.
Ill argue another point..you state that for those of us who want "better quality" fish the only way is to go WC. That is false.
irishfan;3809507; said:
Do not worry about it, it is a common premise to think WC is better. But in the last thread, that is now closed, no one could defend that point. The poll ended coming to the conclusion that a quality F1 or F2 is more desirable in some ways than WC.
The things these folks do not think about is that they cannot even ID a fish as wild from just visual cues. So in essence many of the wild fish we may be seeing, unless you dipped them yourselves, could be products of ponds in Florida.
Just another day at MFK
Better quality than inbred F1000 fish found in the big box stores and produced by the equivalent of puppy mills? ABSOLUTELY!!!
I agree that the F# isn't perfect and don't HAVE to have WC fish to be happy. Is it my preference, yes.
Genetically, the inbred stock is the same as having limited number of people on an island reproducing and incest running rampant. I'm sure you find that offensive. That's what happens with a limited genetic pool and the resulting physical flaws, health issues, etc. are well-known.
A good example would be the tank of Endler's livebearers I used to have. They did exactly that bred and inbred until the resulting fry had bent spines and other health issues.
Sure, if you reintroduce trout or other species, you might get some that actually find each other and reproduce. Most of the time though, you've added to the genetic pool that exists in the wild. I'd think the researchers would make sure that they didn't release the fish in the exact same locale they were taken from.
As for the fish naturally occurring, I was making a point and not dinging you. My point is that none of the fish we choose to keep would be there had they not been taken from the wild at some part in their lineage.
The genetic diversity in the wild has the luxury of natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. Captive stocks don't have that.
If the fish mills were driven by preserving species and had in place genetic diversity plans, then we wouldn't be discussing this as it would be a non-issue.
With all the hybridization running rampant driven by greed, who knows whether or not the fish you buy is really 100% the species it's supposed to be.
Sure, there's naturally occurring hybridization, but it's rare and often caused by habitat loss that eliminates populations of same species suitable mates.
So, is F1, F2, F3 good enough. Yes, they are. Is that what is produced by most of the suppliers to LFS and big box stores? No, it's not.
I agree that the F# isn't perfect and don't HAVE to have WC fish to be happy. Is it my preference, yes.
Genetically, the inbred stock is the same as having limited number of people on an island reproducing and incest running rampant. I'm sure you find that offensive. That's what happens with a limited genetic pool and the resulting physical flaws, health issues, etc. are well-known.
A good example would be the tank of Endler's livebearers I used to have. They did exactly that bred and inbred until the resulting fry had bent spines and other health issues.
Sure, if you reintroduce trout or other species, you might get some that actually find each other and reproduce. Most of the time though, you've added to the genetic pool that exists in the wild. I'd think the researchers would make sure that they didn't release the fish in the exact same locale they were taken from.
As for the fish naturally occurring, I was making a point and not dinging you. My point is that none of the fish we choose to keep would be there had they not been taken from the wild at some part in their lineage.
The genetic diversity in the wild has the luxury of natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. Captive stocks don't have that.
If the fish mills were driven by preserving species and had in place genetic diversity plans, then we wouldn't be discussing this as it would be a non-issue.
With all the hybridization running rampant driven by greed, who knows whether or not the fish you buy is really 100% the species it's supposed to be.
Sure, there's naturally occurring hybridization, but it's rare and often caused by habitat loss that eliminates populations of same species suitable mates.
So, is F1, F2, F3 good enough. Yes, they are. Is that what is produced by most of the suppliers to LFS and big box stores? No, it's not.
