Ammonia in well water

[Vampire fish]

Finally, on the Total Ion scale, 1 ppm of ammonia can produce a maximum of about 3.44 ppm of nitrate on the same scale. Working backwards this means the nitrate levels in your tank do not come from the tap ammonia, they come from the fish and from organic matter in the tanks breaking down. If your fish produce 1 ppm of ammonia a day and other waste does the same, in one week they add 14 ppm of ammonia and that could add a max. of 48 ppm of nitrate. If one stocks heavily and/or changes to little water, nitrate can build up fast.

This is very useful information for me. The nitrates are high in my tank because I never changed my water. The main reason why I assumed the ammonia reintroduced into my tank would equate to unchange nitrates is because I didnt know this conversion factor and I took a nitrate test before and after that showed little to no result that turned out to be a faulty test (who knows what I did sometimes I get tired).

 

[Rocksor]

Yeah, so here's how I got my calculations (missing some info in my original post). With 3ppm total ammonia from the well water (0.15ppm toxic ammonia ph 8 24 C (75F)), and doing a 50% water change with tank water that shows 0ppm total ammonia (assuming same PH and same temp), then the toxic ammonia in the tank would be about 0.075ppm after the water change.

Ammonia Alert show 0.05ppm ammonia (green) as an alert point to do something about it. It shows less than 0.02ppm ammonia as safe. I don't like it turning green, especially if it turns green if I haven't looked at it for hours (eg. asleep).

Seachem MultiTest for Ammonia uses the same sensor for the free ammonia test and the separate total ammonia test as the sensor used for Seachem Ammonia Alert.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is exactly what SeaChem says re the Ammonia Alert (I cnnot copy the color bars):
(All SeaChem infor below is from here: https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php )

Interpretation

Safe <0.02 mg/L No action required

Alert 0.05 mg/L Tolerated for 3-5 days. Monitor and consider a water change soon.

Alarm 0.2 mg/L Tolerated for 1-3 days. Perform a water change soon.

Toxic 0.5 mg/L Perform water change or treat with AmGuard™ for emergency ammonia removal

As little as 0.02 mg/L of free ammonia will produce a greenish hue on the detector surface. This corresponds to a total ammonia (both ionized and free ammonia) of 0.25 mg/L in marine water at pH 8.3. In freshwater at pH 7.0, this corresponds to 3.6 mg/L total ammonia.

Free ammonia is much more toxic than ionized ammonia. As free ammonia, the ALERT color corresponds to about 0.05 mg/L, ALARM to about 0.2 mg/L, and TOXIC to about 0.5 mg/L. Administering a water change should be considered for any indication other than SAFE. The ALERT concentration is tolerated for 3-5 days, ALARM for 1-3 days, and TOXIC is rapidly harmful, requiring immediate attention.

And no, the Ammonia alert and the Multi test do not test the same way. The ammonia test givrds and almost immediate result. You can test as often as the reagents last.

Here is more of what SeaChem says re the Alert:

It may take up to a few days for a dry sensor to equilibrate with the water. No sampling of water, chemicals, or test procedures are required. The presence of the free ammonia is detectable continuously with a response time of about 15 minutes. Response to decreasing ammonia is slower, requiring about 4 hours to go from TOXIC to SAFE on removal of ammonia.


Here is what the Merck manual says (Bolding is added by me.):

NH3 is highly toxic and frequently limits fish production in intensive systems. It is also dynamic, and when it enters the aquatic system, an equilibrium is established between NH3 and ammonium (NH4+). Of the two, NH3 is far more toxic to fish, and its formation is favored by high pH (>7) and water temperature. When pH exceeds ~8.5, any NH3 present can be dangerous. In general, a normally functioning aquatic system should contain no measurable NH3 because as soon as it enters the system, it should be removed by aerobic bacteria in the environment. Ammonia test kits do not typically measure NH3 directly but instead measure the combination of NH3 and NH4+, referred to as total ammonia nitrogen (TAN). A TAN <1 mg/L is usually not cause for concern unless the pH is >8.5. However, if the amount of NH3 is increased, an explanation should be sought. The amount of toxic NH3 present can be calculated using the TAN, pH, and water temperature. When NH3 levels exceed 0.05 mg/L, damage to gills becomes apparent; levels of 2 mg/L are lethal for many fish. Fish exposed to ammonia may be lethargic and have poor appetites. Acute toxicity may be suggested by neurologic signs such as spinning, disorientation, and convulsions.

from https://www.merckvetmanual.com/exot...es-in-aquatic-systems?query=ammonia#v23353503

 

[Rocksor]

I have both tests

Seachem multitest ammonia doing the Free Ammonia Test instructions has you take the sensor circle out of container (it looks like the sensor in Ammonia Alert) that has some substance that probably keeps it wet. You use forceps to avoid damaging it. Put sample tank water into test cavity of test plate. Put sensor in and wait 15 minutes for less sensitive free ammonia result, wait 30 minutes for more sensitive result.

no reagents required for Free Ammonia Test just tank water

Total ammonia test has you add reagent after adding the sensor to the sample test water. Wait time the same for less sensitive total ammonia reading (15 minutes) and more sensitive total ammonia reading (30 minutes)


You can keep ammonia alert in your tank and transfer to holding anotger water container/tank, wait 15 minutes, and see if any free ammonia is detected.

Ive done it with cycling quarantine tank just to see how it works and comparing with Seachem Multitest Ammmonia

 

[Vampire fish]

For the sake of knowledge I want to say when the datnoid was looking ill his gills and body looked frozen and mouth stuck open he was right at the surface and sometimes spazzed and jolted through the water. In my experience its an obvious sign of oxygen deprivation. The ammonia introduction i do think was the cause but with a little digging it is the nitrite. I found a rise in nitrite usually follows an ammonia spike. Nitrite inhibits oxygen exchange to fishes' bloodstream, thereby causing them to suffocate. To end happily though he swam towards me bumping into the glass almost asking to be saved. It was an experience that you had to be there. I got goosebumps later on. Going to do everything I can to give my fish life.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Ammonia damages gills and this make breathing harder. Nitrite acts in the blood. It bunds to the same place oxygen would. The result is there is a reduction in oxygen circulating through the fish.

But there is one big difference between the two. There is not much one can do to block ammonia from doing harm to fish. Using chemicals like prime can halp by turning the NH3 into NH4 The latter is less harmful. But it is not 0 harm and the higher the concentration of NH4, the more harm it can do.

Nitrite enters the bloodstream through the gills and turns the blood to a chocolate-brown color. Hemoglobin, which transports oxygen in the blood, combines with nitrite to form methemoglobin, which is incapable of oxygen transport. Brown blood cannot carry sufficient amounts of oxygen, and affected fish can suffocate despite adequate oxygen concentration in the water. This accounts for the gasping behavior often observed in fish with brown blood disease, even when oxygen levels are relatively high.

from Nitrite in Fish Ponds

Fortunately, there is a way to block nitrite from getting into the blood stream.

Luckily, although we often cannot prevent the occurrence of high nitrite, its effects can be minimized or neutralized safely and economically. Sodium chloride (common salt, NaCl) is used to “treat” brown blood disease. Calcium chloride can also be used but is typically more expensive. The chloride portion of salt competes with nitrite for absorption through the gills.

Maintaining at least a 10 to 1 ratio of chloride to nitrite in a pond effectively prevents nitrite from entering catfish.

from Nitrite in Fish Ponds

I wrote a series of cycling articles in about 2013 which are posted on another large active fish forum. One was on fishless cycling and the other two were on how to rescue a fish-in cycle gone wild. I laid out how to handle nitrite using salt. It requires very small amounts of salt and almost any fish will tolerate that level of salt better than the level of nitrite it is blocking. While some fish may need more than 10 times the chloride as nitrite, most should be OK at 10 times the concentration of nitrite.

Also, re water softeners, what gets built up in aquarium water if one uses a salt based softening system is not salt (s0dium chloride), it is the sodium portion of the salt. Again many fish do not do well with elevated sodium levels. Most of us have or are familiar with the GH and KH test kits. Not as many are familiar with conductivity (or TDS derived from it). This is a measure of anything in water besides H2O. Pure water is a poor conductor of electricity, it is the stuff dissolved in the water which make water ca good conductor. So the broadest measure of what is dissolved in water is conductivity. The higher the conductivity, the more things that are in the water.

Neither a GH nor a KH test kit pick up on the salt content of water (which is why salties use specific equipment to measure saline levels in their tanks). However, a conductivity or TDS meter will do so. I have been using hand held TDS meters for the past 10 years which caused both my GH and KH kits to expuire. The benefit to the KH test over the conductivity is it measures the carbonate hardness which is what is important in terms of pH. A digital conductivity or TDS meter/monitor will pick up everything but what the measurement shows is the total but not the specifics of what in contributing nopr how much of whats is present.

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

Thank you guys for taking the time and effort and teaching us a few things.

... While some fish may need more than 10 times the chloride as nitrite, most should be OK at 10 times the concentration of nitrite.

Is the 10x molar or weight? I always thought rigorously it was 100x molar excess of table salt. By weight seems usually enough: if one reads 1 ppm nitrite, must add 100 ppm NaCl. But I'd most definitely trust you on the 10x. Just wanted clarification and to chime in.

Ammonia in well water? Is that from organic matter somewhere in the water table?

I read the water is filtered through some layers of rotting vegetation as it seeps down and finds its way through the depth of the soil and into an aquifer and thus picks up some ammonia.

I had a sample of our well water tested by a commercial lab to make sure our RO + a bit of raw well water was drinkable. No iron, no dangerous stuff was found. No nitrite, no nitrate. They didn't test for ammonia. My API liquid test usually shows 0.25-0.5 ppm, I suppose, of ammonia.

IDK if this a Florida thing or the swamp thing, or both (or neither?). We live on the edge of Everglades.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Actually the 10 times is ppm or mg/l which are almost equivalent. However, one has to do some dancing to do the calculations.

CALCULATING HOW MUCH SALT TO ADD

PPM is a measure of concentration in water. You cannot weigh ppms. However, 1 mg/l is almost the exact equivalent in water to 1 ppm. So one can use ppm and mg/l interchangeably in this case. You can weigh milligrams.

To add 10 mg/l of chloride for every ppm of nitrite in the water, use the following steps:

1. Multiply your nitrite test reading by 10. This will give you the needed mg/l of chloride you need to add.

2. Calculate the actual volume in litres of the water in your tank. If your volume is in gallons you must convert this into liters. (As a rule, using the advertised volume of the tank at about 85% will put you in the right ballpark.) 1 gallon = 3.785 litres

3. Multiply the number in #1 above by the number of liters of water in #2 above to get the total number of mg of chloride you will need to add.

4. Because salt is roughly 2/3 chloride, you must multiply the number calculated in #3 by 1.5. You now know how many mg of salt you should add to the water. Dividing this number by 1,000 will convert this amount to grams which are easier to weigh for most people.

5. Do not add the dry salt directly to the tank. Remove some tank water to a container and mix the salt in that, then add the salt water to the tank spreading it around the surface.

Hint: We have calculated a handy conversion from grams to volume so one can measure in tea or table spoons which most folks are likely to have while a gram scale is not. The following calculations were made using an Ohaus triple beam scale: ¼ teaspoon of salt shaker sized table salt weighs 2 grams.


It is important to understand that once inside the fish, nitrite takes about 24+ hours to work its way out. The most important thing to do to help the fish is to stop more nitrite from entering. Water changes can dilute the nitrite but this only means less may enter the fish. Chloride stops this process. The one thing that I have read that will remove nitrite from inside a fish is Methylene Blue. But that stains heck out of a tank.

(Edited for a typo in liters in gallon).

 

[thebiggerthebetter]

... The most important thing to do to help the fish is to stop more nitrite from entering... Chloride stops this process...

I see, thanks. My picture of chloride mitigation was purely statistical in that chloride and nitrite merely compete for absorption at the gill surface without any preferential treatment by the gills and by adding 10x of chloride we are cutting the nitrite uptake only by 90%. Hence I believed 100x was significantly better.

But your words say my crude picture was wrong. I'd not call a 90% cut in the uptake of a lethal poison the stop, albeit it is all relative, or maybe just semantics.

 

[Vampire fish]

Took new samples of the water today found 0 ammonia in it from the same source and different sources around the house. Did not add anything to the softener. Thinking it might have to do with the timed recharge. Will have to do some research. The aquarium that got exposed to the ammonia still has ammonia in it although significantly lower and getting better.