Ammonia - Not enough Filtration

[jjohnwm]

I read the entire mess as well; not an easy read. Not sure what is going on with the tap water. When we jumped from Nov19 to the present, it states that the tank is still not cycled after running for 6 months. Which tank are we talking about? The pic at the beginning of the thread shows the cat in a larger, clean-looking bare-bottomed tank. The new pic shows a cat, presumably the same one, in a rather dirty-looking, much smaller tank, in a different location, with several inches of dirty gravel on the bottom. I've lost track of which combination of filters are gurgling away, or how many gallons of assorted goop have been dumped in. And there is frequently a countdown of days mentioned, how many days until the new tank is cycled and ready. The new tank isn't even built yet, and the old tank(s) may or may not have been cycled...but we are counting down the days until the next one is ready.

This is a frustrating thread. It's like reading a really awful book; you invest some time in it, you want to put it down but you hope it'll get better and provide some satisfaction, but it just gets worse, so you read some more with the same vain hope...okay, not being helpful, I know. Switching books now.

 

[twentyleagues]

I'm not against prime. In fact when I helped out a reef Paradise we used it while drip acclimating fish and inverts. You have to drip acclimate salt water, but how do you deal with the ammonia in the shipping water? We all know how that works open it to oxygen and pH goes up the ammonia becomes really toxic and your adding more water with higher temp and pH boom dead fish. Prime is/was the answer. We started using it what the a&m rep came in and demonstrated how and why to use it. It cut losses. They use it in the salt section of my current lfs for the same reasons.

 

[dr exum]

Fair enough,

lots of good information thanks everyone!

from the Begining,

10” fish started in 75g solo bare bottom tank which was set up I think in August... I used an EMP 350 and sponge filter from another established tank.

one EMP 350 and one sponge was not enough, added filters Marineland 360 canister and another EMP 350...

2 months pass,

November I move him into to his current 150g (48”x24”x30”)

2 - FX -6 , 2 EMP 350’s , one Marineland internal canister, plants on the back...

ammo goes to zero after 2 water changes,

This tank was set up using dirty media put in canister or hob from 3-5 other tanks, dosed pure ammo, then 8 days Stability, 2 bottles dr Tim’s...

i have not posted water test results I think in some time,

these are from 10 minutes ago, did water change Thursday (50%) i usually feed him only every other day... or one 6oz talipa per week -

this water looks bad...

 

[dr exum]

I do do gravel vacs, the nasty dirt looking stuff is Alge... I’ve had lights off and did a scrape,

does not effect ammonia...

I’ve added pictures of the filters that are “gurgling” as well... think there are 5

I appreciate all of the constructive feedback,

it’s not meant to be a book, I’d imagine less senior fish keepers get panicked at times and don’t convey the most constructive well presented series of events...

 

[twentyleagues]

So you have a biological filter as you have nitrate and a lot of it. I still don't understand why you have so much ammonia. Does the nitrate go down also with water change?

 

[RD.]

Quite possibly, and IMO most likely, just a false ammonia reading from your API test kit. This is quite common when using Seachem Prime (or Safe) as a water conditioner. Salicylate or Nessler based test kits determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and re-release the ammonia, giving a false ammonia reading. Total ammonia is simply a reading of NH3 (toxic) and NH4+ (non toxic) combined.


According to Seachem, when using their products such as Prime and/or Safe, the ammonia is converted into the Schiff base of an aldehyde (R2C=NH) which is non-toxic.

Get yourself one of these, these sensors only detect free ammonia (NH3), not total ammonia, which is what your test is supplying. https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php

 

[dr exum]

So you have a biological filter as you have nitrate and a lot of it. I still don't understand why you have so much ammonia. Does the nitrate go down also with water change?

Yes

 

[dr exum]

Quite possibly, and IMO most likely, just a false ammonia reading from your API test kit. This is quite common when using Seachem Prime (or Safe) as a water conditioner. Salicylate or Nessler based test kits determine the total ammonia by raising the pH of the test solution to 12 or greater. At this high pH all ammonia removal products will breakdown and re-release the ammonia, giving a false ammonia reading. Total ammonia is simply a reading of NH3 (toxic) and NH4+ (non toxic) combined.


According to Seachem, when using their products such as Prime and/or Safe, the ammonia is converted into the Schiff base of an aldehyde (R2C=NH) which is non-toxic.

Get yourself one of these, these sensors only detect free ammonia (NH3), not total ammonia, which is what your test is supplying. https://www.seachem.com/ammonia-alert.php

I tested 10 tanks using same kit 4 days ago, this tank was the only one that showed ammo ?

 

[Rocksor]

I tested 10 tanks using same kit 4 days ago, this tank was the only one that showed ammo ?

Slowly remove the gravel until it's only about less than 1" thick. Remove it during a water change. If the water turns really brown during removal, then that's where some of the problem lies.

What's the PH of the tank? The Ammo Alert is the best thing out there to show toxic ammonia and not bound non-toxic ammonium.

 

[RD.]

I tested 10 tanks using same kit 4 days ago, this tank was the only one that showed ammo ?

Regardless, if you want to remove false readings via the API test kit, while using Prime, you need to test with a different test kit, or something such as the Seachem sensor that I linked to. If you use Prime for a water change, and test any time while Prime is still active in your tank water - you will get a false reading. It's that simple.