Ammonia produced by X pounds of fish?

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HoundsNTrout

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Feb 26, 2016
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Sorry I know I saw this somewhere on this forum. Is there a calculator on how much ammonia per feeding or per day a pound of fish will produce? Based on temps, ph, food,etc. I know but is there something to give me an idea? THanks.
50 degree water, ph of 7.8, food at 45%P and 10% fat ( home made pelletized bloodmeal, fishmeal and powdered eggs )

Thanks
 
Fish excrete ammonia (NH3), however below a certain pH (7.4, I believe), ammonia begins to get converted to ammonium (NH4). The amount increases as pH declines.

Ammonia is toxic to fish while ammonium is not (or if it is, it is enormously less toxic.) Additionally, ammonia is more toxic as temperature increases.

Assuming you're concerned with toxicity, you'd have to have a formula that takes all that into account. I've done the math to calculate the amount of ammonia, but not combined with pH or temp, since the latter 2 variables do not have a linear relationship to toxicity. (pH for example is a log function.)

There is no formula (or claim that I've ever seen) where a certain weight of fish (OP: "X pounds of fish") creates a certain amount of ammonia. The reason is that while fish always produce ammonia, the amount is highly correlated to the amount and type of food consumed along with the timing of the consumption. Weight of the fish has no direct impact on that other than the fact that larger fish can eat more, but of course, that is a spurious relationship. They produce more because they eat more, not because they are bigger.

The most direct relationship that I have found in my studies is the amount of nitrogen in the food consumed. More nitrogen means more ammonia. This unfortunately is a calculation that people can rarely do unless they can break down the protein in food into the proper components (amino acids, I believe) which each have a specific nitrogen content.

I use a generalized formula:

dry weight content of grams of food consumed x % protein content x 16% x 82%

1) all food has to be converted to dry weight equivalent, i.e., water or moisture content is excluded from gross weight

2) % of protein content in consumed food (dry weight equivalent) is used and assumes the protein in digested. Protein which bypasses digestion is problematic as it may be removed in filtration, cleaning, etc.

3) 16% represents the average nitrogen content in protein, however, there is a wide range of nitrogen in the protein components (~ 8-27%), so one should not take 16% as any more than a rough estimate. I.e., common foods that have the same protein content may cause very different amounts of ammonia because the amino acid components in the foods are very different.

4) 82% represents the ammonia content in nitrogen

That is a rough calculation based upon dry weight of grams of food consumed to grams of ammonia produced.

As to the timing, it varies by many factors which I would expect defy formulation such as species, temperature, type and amount of food consumed, etc.. Roughly speaking, ammonia output peaks 3-4 hours after consumption (at least based on some studies I've seen), but continues to a large some degree for many hours later (probably up to 24 hours) with some small amounts even afterwards.
 
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Thanks. Makes sense. That would most likely tell me a lot more anway.

I have started a small hatchery and trying to save water have a semi recycled system. There is no way the bio filters can support all the fish on their own but just wondering. I have just started pounding a well just for sole purpose of trickle the tanks. Then I should not have to worry. AS it stands right now I use our only well to trickle on a timer. So its not running continuously which I would like. Not much is needed but just something all day long.

It always happens. I cycle the bio filters and they work for about a month then I start to see problems if you will. So I have to set the well water intrusion a little higher.

Currently about 50 pounds of trout in a 1000 gallon tank.
Eight ( 1-2) pound Brookies, Fifteen ( 2 pound rainbows ) and Five 2 pound Brown trout. All about the same length to ovoid canibalism or fighting. IT has not happened in 4 years.

When I cycled the bio filter I just went with 4-5ppm of ammonia ( nitrites maybe went to 2ppm in 12 hours I think ) but I did it 2X per day. Early morning bring it to 4 and again at night add more to keep it at 4 or 5. By next morning its always zero'd out.
However these brood fish eat a lot even though I try to feed them 3X per day less amounts each feeding. AT 50 Gallons per DAY of fresh well water it keeps it "fairly" zero. If by chance its up to 62-4 degree water though then I'll see some nitrites forming.

Larger bio filters sure but I dont' think I"m gonna do that. Just add more water daily from the new well.

However, I always want to know am i getting the very most BB in thier as I possibly can before I add the fish.

THanks
 
HoundsNTrout HoundsNTrout

What percentage ammonia do you use and how much do you add to the 1000 gallons?
 
I don't know how much in terms of ml's because I use the cap off the ammonia container.
But I always add enough to bring it to 4-5ppm of ammonia. As things disappear overnight ( so not 24 hours ) I add more in the morning too. THe nitrites often reach over 5ppm and are usually gone by morning too. Sometimes I have to wait 24 hours for that to zero out.

Is it better to add slightly less ammonia once I'm convinced its cycled? Meaning maybe get it to 2ppm in morning and then do the same in evening? Because at that rate everything zeros out pretty quick maybe 12 hours or less.
I would think it might be better to add just as though I was feeding fish? Meaning 2 or 3 times per day? But then if I did that, the ammonia would start going away slightly before I add more, but the nitrites usually get real high for a little longer time frame.

THanks
 
Fish excrete ammonia (NH3), however below a certain pH (7.4, I believe), ammonia begins to get converted to ammonium (NH4). The amount increases as pH declines.

Ammonia is toxic to fish while ammonium is not (or if it is, it is enormously less toxic.) Additionally, ammonia is more toxic as temperature increases.

Assuming you're concerned with toxicity, you'd have to have a formula that takes all that into account. I've done the math to calculate the amount of ammonia, but not combined with pH or temp, since the latter 2 variables do not have a linear relationship to toxicity. (pH for example is a log function.)

There is no formula (or claim that I've ever seen) where a certain weight of fish (OP: "X pounds of fish") creates a certain amount of ammonia. The reason is that while fish always produce ammonia, the amount is highly correlated to the amount and type of food consumed along with the timing of the consumption. Weight of the fish has no direct impact on that other than the fact that larger fish can eat more, but of course, that is a spurious relationship. They produce more because they eat more, not because they are bigger.

The most direct relationship that I have found in my studies is the amount of nitrogen in the food consumed. More nitrogen means more ammonia. This unfortunately is a calculation that people can rarely do unless they can break down the protein in food into the proper components (amino acids, I believe) which each have a specific nitrogen content.

I use a generalized formula:

dry weight content of grams of food consumed x % protein content x 16% x 82%

1) all food has to be converted to dry weight equivalent, i.e., water or moisture content is excluded from gross weight

2) % of protein content in consumed food (dry weight equivalent) is used and assumes the protein in digested. Protein which bypasses digestion is problematic as it may be removed in filtration, cleaning, etc.

3) 16% represents the average nitrogen content in protein, however, there is a wide range of nitrogen in the protein components (~ 8-27%), so one should not take 16% as any more than a rough estimate. I.e., common foods that have the same protein content may cause very different amounts of ammonia because the amino acid components in the foods are very different.

4) 82% represents the ammonia content in nitrogen

That is a rough calculation based upon dry weight of grams of food consumed to grams of ammonia produced.

As to the timing, it varies by many factors which I would expect defy formulation such as species, temperature, type and amount of food consumed, etc.. Roughly speaking, ammonia output peaks 3-4 hours after consumption (at least based on some studies I've seen), but continues to a large some degree for many hours later (probably up to 24 hours) with some small amounts even afterwards.
Would respiration through gills and all increase ammonia? Or is 100% sourcing from the food as protein is used?
 
So I looked up the percent. It says 1-3. lol. So I guess I'll take the average of 2 %

I use 375 mls in the 1000 Gallons to bring it to about a 4ppm or so it might be 5 but that's the ball park of what I read. Nitrites go to past 5 for a while longer but everything is most definitely zero by morning in 24 hours and a lot of it is just about gone in 16 to 18 hours.
Am I adding more BB by adding more ammonia? And if so, should I do it 3X per day or all at once until its zero by 24 hours? Like 6 ppm?

Thanks
 
Would respiration through gills and all increase ammonia? Or is 100% sourcing from the food as protein is used?
In Chemistry, you learn that unless something really weird happens, you keep your original elements by mass. If the nitrogen is metabolized by the fish or a snail or some bacteria, it is the same number of grams of nitrogen. Yeah, some stuff can get metabolized differently, but overall, the rule is:
N in = N out.
N in food = N in ammonia
 
Bb doesn't function well over 4ppm, so add it to that level and see if it's zero within 24 hrs.

From an aquaponics document
 
Would respiration through gills and all increase ammonia? Or is 100% sourcing from the food as protein is used?

I wouldn't say 100%. Fish have extremely elevated output of ammonia after eating. Estimates I've seen are that 60% of this increase is directly from food. But even starved fish produce ammonia. Studies show that barring stress, starved fish will produced a low for continuous amount of ammonia.

Imo, this is likely internal metabolism. Fish are composed of proteins and when their cells are damaged or die, that would lead to a release of ammonia. Stress, unusually activity from swimming leads to increases in this level of release.

So, food protein is the primary source of the "surplus" ammonia. Studies I've seen claimed 60-80% was directly from food recently consumed.

Ultimately, I would suggest 100% is from food, because the muscle fibers (tissue) in the fish is a direct result of food. Fish can't generate their tissues from water and air.
 
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