Any ex FH keepers wanna input?

[peathenster]

Just want to point out that there is adifference between interspecific hybrids such as FHs and line-bred dogs and cats which contain mutations that were selected for by humans because they confer certain desirable traits. Dogs and cats, however weird they may look, are not hybrids. Mules, on the other hand, are.

Haven't kept FHs myself but am awfully tempted by those Thai Silks.

 

[elting44]

Just want to point out that there is adifference between interspecific hybrids such as FHs and line-bred dogs and cats which contain mutations that were selected for by humans because they confer certain desirable traits. Dogs and cats, however weird they may look, are not hybrids. Mules, on the other hand, are.

Haven't kept FHs myself but am awfully tempted by those Thai Silks.

Excellent point, "man-made" is not synonomous with Hybrid.

Hybridization happens in nature as well so not all Hybrids are man-made and not all man-made are hybrids.

 

[Amphilophus88]

Why would the fact that a flowerhorn is an (intentional) hybrid change his opinion about a fish that he likes?

Given the fact that most Amphilophus on the market are likely hybrids (or of un-verifiable provenance)...he's probably keeping hybrids still.

Matt

No, in Holland we don't have much hybrids. And I don't think you can compare a Midas/RD to a Flowerhorn.
Also, it was his decision hahah not mine, I would have just kept the Flowerhorn if I already had it.

 

[FishingOut]

Prior to the use of DNA, researchers were divided into two schools of thought:
Most supposed that these early dogs were descendants of tamed wolves, which interbred and evolved into a domesticated species.
Other scientists, while believing wolves were the chief contributor, suspected that jackals or coyotes contributed to the dog's ancestry.
Carles Vila, who has conducted the most extensive study to date, has shown that DNA evidence has ruled out any ancestor canine species except the wolf. Vila's team analyzed 162 different examples of wolf DNA from 27 populations in Europe, Asia, and North America. These results were compared with DNA from 140 individual dogs from 67 breeds gathered from around the world. Using blood or hair samples, DNA was extracted and genetic distance for mitochondrial DNA was estimated between individuals.[17]
Based on this DNA evidence, most of the domesticated dogs were found to be members of one of four groups. The largest and most diverse group contains sequences found in the most ancient dog breeds, including the dingo of Australia, the New Guinea Singing Dog, and many modern breeds, like the collie and retriever. Other groups such as the German shepherd showed a closer relation to wolf sequences than to those of the main dog group, suggesting that such breeds had been produced by crossing dogs with wild wolves. It is also possible that this is evidence that dogs may have been domesticated from wolves on different occasions and at different places. Vilà is still uncertain whether domestication happened once–after which domesticated dogs bred with wolves from time to time–or whether it happened more than once.
A later study by Peter Savolainen et al. identified mitochondrial DNA evidence suggesting a common origin from a single East Asian gene pool for all dog populations.[14] However, a more recent study by Bridgett vonHoldt et al. using a much larger data set of nuclear markers points to the Middle East as the source of most of the genetic diversity in the domestic dog and a more likely origin of domestication events.[18]

A recent study of African dogs found a high level of mtDNA diversity. The authors suggest that a new view of the domestication of the dog may be needed.[21] A study by the Kunming Institute of Zoology found that the domestic dog is descended from wolves tamed less than 16,300 years ago south of the Yangtse river in China.[22] An older report said that all dog mitochondrial DNA came from three wild Asian female wolves.[23]

Most modern dogs are indeed hybrids. My french bulldog is certainly a hybrid bulldog. Unfortuantly we dont have record of dog breeding 16,300 years ago. Labradoodles are deemed hybrids when they may or may not have came directly from Canis lupus familiaris. Other scientific research suggests dogs have been domesticated around 30,000 BC. Nobody is really quite sure as to how dog became what they are today. Personally I have a hard time believing rottweilers and pugs are the same specie. Its almost too diverse to be from Canis lupus alone. But who knows. Flowerhorn to dogs is a hard comparasion because flowerhorns have been around for what? 15 years, Compared to the domestic dog being around 30,000 befor Jesus.

 

[dogofwar]

Why? The flowerhorn is intentional...and the Midas/RD is not?

Matt

And I don't think you can compare a Midas/RD to a Flowerhorn.

 

[Brian_Indiana]

There are some great points on here. I am glad I chimed at the front. To play devils adovcate, I am not a fan of the crazy koks. There is food that might advertising kok growth. I have heard of people using mirrors to anger the FH and stimulate growth. Seems crazy. If you look at mine, his kok is fairly small for his size and it suits him fine.

As far as the purist go...whatever, have fun in your ivory tower. If they want to flame on something, jump on tattoo or dyed fish. WTF??

 

[the animal guy]

Hi guys thank you all for your inputs..

Please dont think of this as a sensitive topic about hybrids or pure. Because you have many different ways of the hobby in here.. It isnt a sensitive topic if you dont see it in a negative way or even bring it up.

What Im asking is for those that were FH keepers to share why they only keep regular cichlids now.

I've been keeping many FHs and also pure breeds. I will give my input when I really get to sit down with time to go over this thread and share with you guys how I feel about this..

thanks all and I hope to hear more from those on the same boat..

 

[peathenster]

Most modern dogs are indeed hybrids. My french bulldog is certainly a hybrid bulldog. Unfortuantly we dont have record of dog breeding 16,300 years ago.

I'm completely confused. How does the text you cited support the notion that dogs are hybrids? It's rather clear to me that it's saying the exact opposite.

I suppose "Hybrid" can have many meanings (e.g., my car). But I think most people would agree, in the context of FH discussion, that we are talking about interspecific hybrids.

While some may find it hard to believe, the extraordinary phenotypic diversity in dogs is nothing more than a consequence of random mutations and artificial selection. Think about kale, Chinese broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts. Yes, they are all the same species.

In terms of records - no we don't have them written down, but nature does it for us. Hundreds of millions of years of history....it's all in the DNA sequence.

Now let's just go back to talking about FHs......

 

[Water]

It was the opposite for me, I kept SA cichlids for years and now I'm into Flowerhorns. I expected this thread to be derailed by "Purists", but oh well, Flowerhorns aren't going away anytime soon

 

[dogofwar]

At least according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf-dog_hybrid), several breeds of dogs, even dogs accepted by various dog clubs, are wolf-dog hybrids:

Today, at least seven breeds of dog exist which acknowledge a significant amount of recent wolf-dog hybridization in their creation. Four breeds were the result of intentional crosses with German Shepherd Dogs, and have distinguishing characteristics of appearance that may reflect the varying subspecies of wolf that contributed to their foundation stock. Other, more unusual crosses have occurred; recent experiments in Germany were conducted in the crossing of wolves and poodles.[22] The intention in creating the breeds was manifold; ranging from the desire for a recognizable companion wolfdog, to military working dogs.

• The eldest breed, the Saarlooswolfhond, traces its origins to the efforts of a Dutch breeder in 1921. This first attempt at sustained wolf-dog crossing was to improve Shepherd breeding stock and prevent canine distemper. Though this effort failed, today the FCI and the Dutch Kennel Club both recognize the breed.

• In the 1950s the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog was also created to work on border patrol in the countries now known as Slovakia and the Czech Republic. It is recognized by the Foundation Stock Service of the American Kennel Club AKC, the United Kennel Club UKC, and the FCI, and today is used in agility, obedience, search and rescue, police work, therapy work, and herding in Europe and the United States.

• The Lupo Italiano has also been accepted into the Italian Kennel Club.[citation needed]

• The Kunming Wolfdog is a Chinese wolf-dog hybrid bred for military purpose.

Matt

I'm completely confused. How does the text you cited support the notion that dogs are hybrids? It's rather clear to me that it's saying the exact opposite.

I suppose "Hybrid" can have many meanings (e.g., my car). But I think most people would agree, in the context of FH discussion, that we are talking about interspecific hybrids.

While some may find it hard to believe, the extraordinary phenotypic diversity in dogs is nothing more than a consequence of random mutations and artificial selection. Think about kale, Chinese broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts. Yes, they are all the same species.

In terms of records - no we don't have them written down, but nature does it for us. Hundreds of millions of years of history....it's all in the DNA sequence.

Now let's just go back to talking about FHs......