Any "Panama Green" Umbee Still Around?

[RD.]

UK ain't giving out the info, so why clamor for it? That, I will never understand.

I don't recall anyone in this discussion clamoring for anything. As previously posted, some of us are simply attempting to help steer him in the right direction.

If UK doesn't want to disclose the location at this time, then by all means he has that right. And until the fish is actually described, IMO he also has the right to call it whatever he likes.

Correct, and no one has argued that point.

As long as everyone can be responsible with them for the time being, I find no problem with the name.

You mean like this?
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?455052-New-cichlids!-Location-F!

Where I posted the following on page 2 of that discussion.

Nothing personal gents, but if these fish are as EXCEPTIONAL as everyone claims, then why are some of you crossing the different geographical variants? That's the only part of this that I don't understand. What is the purpose of breeding location X & Z, other then to create a new 'aquarium' strain of fish. Any potential unique evolutionary history, and possibly unique behavioural traits, are in an instant lost forever. Genetically speaking these fish could be different/unique from each other. Crosses between two populations of a species are technically intraspecific hybrids, you guys crossing these fish from different locations do understand that, yes?

I have no problem if those doing the collecting want to keep the exact locations secret for now, but I don't get why anyone would take wild fish from different geographic locations & breed them.

Sorry, but I don't see the "responsible" thing being done here with some of these umbees, far from it, which is why I entered this topic back in January. I did so in the hopes that perhaps some of those keeping these newly collected fish would rethink their position, and what they were about to do. Not for myself personally, as I have no interest in keeping these fish, but for the hobby as a whole. And from what I have been seeing thus far, I disagree, there really is a reason to carry on with this discussion/argument.



I think that Lopaka summed all of this up nicely with the following comment from that previous discussion.

Chris is doing the right thing buisiness wise by keeping his locations undiclosed. We have seen it plenty of times where a vendor will get a fish in that has not been collected in years and the price reflects it. Well Chris is now the vendor and wants to remain as such therefore controlling the market so to speak, good buisiness !!

In the end it's not about the fish, science, or the hobby, it's all about the $$$.

 

[Aquanero]

That doesn't result in any confusion at all, does it? (sarcasm)

Matt

Agreed, never been any threads asking to clear that one up. Green terror is another common name that has sparked some serious debate anround here. Latin names when and where available makes things much eaiser.

 

[ryansmith83]

Oh, thanks. I've read this but was unaware that wilds were being imported.... I was under the impression that they might be an aquarium strain (or at least that's what I took away from this discussion).
http://www.cichlidae.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10777
If you're right then I'll have to bump them to the top of my Heros wishlist.
Pardon the derail. ROFL

The discussion you linked is about whether or not the fish is a truly separate (and undescribed) species or just a regional/color variant of an existing species, namely H. appendiculatus or H. efasciatus. At this point they're just undescribed, so we'll have to wait and see if they're given their own species or not. They share a lot in common with H. appendiculatus.

In the beginning it was suggested that these fish may not be wilds but a color morph bred in captivity, but several suppliers have offered wild adults for sale. Here's an example: http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?40639-wild-caught-Heros-sp-rotkeil

 

[flowerpower]

Yea, I re-read it. I definitely misread that on the first go. Thanks for straightening that out.

 

[Nemesis]

You mean like this?
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?455052-New-cichlids!-Location-F!

Where I posted the following on page 2 of that discussion.



Sorry, but I don't see the "responsible" thing being done here with some of these umbees, far from it, which is why I entered this topic back in January. I did so in the hopes that perhaps some of those keeping these newly collected fish would rethink their position, and what they were about to do. Not for myself personally, as I have no interest in keeping these fish, but for the hobby as a whole. And from what I have been seeing thus far, I disagree, there really is a reason to carry on with this

Not arguing with you at all RD. In fact, IMO all of your post thus far have been nothing but informational and helpful.

I never insisted anyone was being responsible or not, rather outlining that this is what really matters here.
If these fish from different locations are going to be bred together to make some "super Umbee", them IMO it completely defeats the purpose of traveling all the way to Colombia to bring in these new strains. And in this case I agree, it is a very valid topic. I just don't see the issue of name and location going anywhere any time soon. As useful as it may be

 

[oriqua]

And the others such as big name collectors that people know and vendors and others are plurely in it for the science?? Him I wonder Rd since your so good at casting the stones if your good intention on this board are also so morally driven. You diguise your true intention with the quazi intellectually profound posts but I mean you seem to try to make people look and feel less then your Fish God Authoratative knowledge that you write. Keep writing and pointing out the flaws in others MEMBERS you seem to be " morphing into a pharisaical troll of MFK. I mean it is a public forum as you so often point out so that mean's people can breed what ,where and whomever they want. They're entitled to name there fish whatever they want funny most of the time these science people are naming the fish after themselves and people would complain about that if UK did that right!

I don't recall anyone in this discussion clamoring for anything. As previously posted, some of us are simply attempting to help steer him in the right direction.




Correct, and no one has argued that point.



You mean like this?
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?455052-New-cichlids!-Location-F!

Where I posted the following on page 2 of that discussion.



Sorry, but I don't see the "responsible" thing being done here with some of these umbees, far from it, which is why I entered this topic back in January. I did so in the hopes that perhaps some of those keeping these newly collected fish would rethink their position, and what they were about to do. Not for myself personally, as I have no interest in keeping these fish, but for the hobby as a whole. And from what I have been seeing thus far, I disagree, there really is a reason to carry on with this discussion/argument.



I think that Lopaka summed all of this up nicely with the following comment from that previous discussion.





In the end it's not about the fish, science, or the hobby, it's all about the $$$.

 

[RD.]

I have absolutely no problem with Chris making money off of these fish, he should, I imagine that collecting these fish have cost him a great deal of blood, sweat, tears, and $$$. If, that's IF, these fish were at some point found to be a new species, I would have absolutely no problem if they were named after UK. Why would I? He collected them, and IMO he deserves all the credit that he can for his efforts.

My point was, that one can make $$$, and at the same time still do the responsible thing. There are numerous collectors, importers, and vendors that do so all the time.

It's really not that complicated, at least not for anyone that isn't lacking in reading comprehension skills.

 

[oriqua]

Yeah your proved my point pharisaical troller. Comprehension is all good hmm. How's the myopia? The cloners are spewing the junk.

I have absolutely no problem with Chris making money off of these fish, he should, I imagine that collecting these fish have cost him a great deal of blood, sweat, tears, and $$$. If, that's IF, these fish were at some point found to be a new species, I would have absolutely no problem if they were named after UK. Why would I? He collected them, and IMO he deserves all the credit that he can for his efforts.

My point was, that one can make $$$, and at the same time still do the responsible thing. There are numerous collectors, importers, and vendors that do so all the time.

It's really not that complicated, at least not for anyone that isn't lacking in reading comprehension skills.

 

[UMBEEKING]

OK guys, lets get one thing clear. It is not about the money. Its about Respect. Here it is simply and plain. I brought something new to this hobby and gave something that did not exist here a name to refer to. Upon doing so, a group of members here did not like the name and would not respect the fact that I would not disclose the locations at the time.This group of people could not get passed it and over looked the fish because of the name given. This alone blew my mind away and If you talk to anyone who knows me, I'm the kind of guy that don't take will to things like that and will continue to provoke you until something happens. Yes, I did ask for help from Mojo and RD trying to find my way through this as I have never collected something that I believe to be so profound. And as R.D. admitted very little help was given. I have been in this hobby for a while now and I have seen collectors collect new strains or new species and name them what they like. After all I believe it is there right to. Its to bad that the person who is describing the fish (scientist) who never spent the time in the jungle collecting them gets the rights in the end right??? I find it amusing how a man such as myself can show you people actual footage of this species location and show you, me actually pulling them out of there waters of there location and then show you the actual cichlid back in my tank here in the U.S.A. and still say things like there "location does not exist." When these same people would buy fish from a vendor that does have the river title on the specimen that is not proving that these fish are were they say they are from and be so satisfied not to question if they are truly from the location given or even from the wild for that matter. Now that is interesting. Dog of War you say I look un informed when the fact is Im the most Informed person on this species of Cichlid as I know where they are from and you don't. As far as crossing Locations X and Z Umbees, These are your blue Umbees that are not from the Rio Magdalena but from two distinct locations. Blue Umbriferum are not only found in the Rio Magdalena you can find them in other rivers and lakes in Colombia. So what were doing is crossing a blue umbee with a blue umbee introducing new genes trying to make a more colorful Blue UMBEE. There behavior is the same so theres nothing being lost R.D. Its not like were crossing the Black Umbee with the Blue Umbee. You see the Rio Magdalena is a large river that passes through Colombia, So even within that river system you will find different populations of Blue Umbee but no one here has even questioned that. What part of the Rio Magdalena are your UMBEES from? You see thats because your suppliers don't really know unless there down there collecting the fish themselves. Anyway Mojo, RD, and Dog of War I would like to tell all three of you that this has been the most flattering post I have ever been apart of. How many days now have you guys been dropping my name on this thread? Thank you for your wealth of knowledge and the personal time you three have devoted to keeping such an interesting thread going I do want everyone to know that I have two strains of Gorillus both are 2 generations deep in fry. Largest fry approaching 6 inches and let me tell you these things are something different. I have not distributed these fish yet but just so you know My true intentions was always to provide my fellow hobbyist with there location points and I will do so when I'm ready to diss purse them. So there will be no confusion among the two strains. I've enjoyed this thread very much and hope that we as a community can grow together if not O welllllllll cause Im a do me..... FlowerPower this is for you brother!

 

[Aquatik]

Chris there is a few of us here in canada that are going to order some of those bad boys! There looking amazing!