Aren't you Ray guys/gals going the way of the Midevil ( Citrinellum x Red Devil ) ?

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Nice points on dogs. Most ALL domestic dogs came from 1 pack of wolves that were first bred to be gentle. There is an awesome documentary on the subject on netflix. As far as particular vendors go, if you want a horror story x2, pm me. I put them on blast once but allowed myself to be bought off and comments removed so I won't do it again... despite the fact that even my payoff was screwed... :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: hashtag, still sour.
 
Mr. Allgood said:
Nice points on dogs. Most ALL domestic dogs came from 1 pack of wolves that were first bred to be gentle. There is an awesome documentary on the subject on netflix. As far as particular vendors go, if you want a horror story x2, pm me. I put them on blast once but allowed myself to be bought off and comments removed so I won't do it again... despite the fact that even my payoff was screwed... :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: hashtag, still sour.
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Hybridization is incredibly common. Many of us are racial hybrids. Italians and greeks have darker skin and thick black hair because of African genes. American blacks are lighter than African blacks because slave owners used to like to rape their slaves. genealogy shows most American Blacks are around 1/4 Caucasian. and "Around 30% of white people in America have at least 2.3% African DNA"1

Species hybridization is common too. Many of us are actually hybrids. Caucasians and Asians have 1-4% Neanderthal DNA. 2 This comes from cohabitating with this other homo specie and interbreeding before they went extinct or they were absorbed into our bloodline. Africans and Natives to the Americas are nearly 100% homo sapien as there were no Neanderthal in Africa or Americas, they are the closest races to pure "Human".

I know site your sources:

1 http://www.isteve.com/2002_How_White_Are_Blacks.htm

2 http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.htm the actual study has estimates of percentages.

Many other peer reviewed sources available if you want them I'll jump on NIH and PubMed, etc. but if you check the sources on these articles the data is there.

I find it interesting that many of us profess our love of pure bloodlines when we ourselves are hybrids of race and species.
 
Mr. Allgood said:
I didn't realize many cb rays are imported. I wouldn't trust pure bloodlines coming from overseas from anyone that wasn't well known. The guy with a kiddie pool likely won't be exporting. Anyone who pays for a cb import will likely openly discuss the rays origins
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If anyone is spending £1500 on a black diamond they would be a fool not to know all there is to know about rays and spot a hybrid from a mile away


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My personal preference is pure and that is all I keep, but am not against those who keep and prefer them. Some are quite amazing. But not to my taste as I prefer a clean look.
All I would ask is that a seller whether it be vendor or private be up front about the lineage of the ray I would be purchasing.
 
Race vs species is a touchy area from a biological stand point. The point could be argued we have classified them wrong, and all Amazon rays are the same species with different variations more similar to breed/race than actual individual species - but that is a WHOLE new topic.

As for the dog vs wolf, step back and look at that picture in today's world:
We are killing dogs and searching frantically to house them because there are SOOO many. We have factories/mills pumping dogs into the trade for profit that are nothing more than farms for genetic issues. While in the wild, wolf populations are lower and lower every year, with many being protected to ensure they don't go extinct.

I'd hate to see FW rays end up the same way due to human impact.
 
Everyone has to look at it a little differently. The depths the US and the UK have taken hybrids is very shallow. Sure there have been several rays crossed but not to the length Southeast Asia has taken them. Most people breeding rays here in the states and the UK have yet to cross the barrier in my opinion of having to worry about what bloodlines are in what ray. Southeast Asia is generations x10 ahead of us. Why is that? Maybe because they look at fish differently then we do. It also comes down to the almighty dollar.

We simply don't have the market for 4 and 5 digit rays. The market THEY have and sell to in countries like Japan and China are willing to pay that kind of money. Hence the reason we always get stuck with the leftovers of wild caught rays. They will pay top dollar for them and we won't. IMO it has nothing to do with playing God. It is simply about money and getting bored with same the same old pure looking rays. Sure you can jump in the middle and buy some of these fancy hybrids but don't expect to get the recipe for what is in them. Why would they do that? That is what is making them money. I can guarantee you half the vendors bringing in these Asian hybrids have no clue what makes them up.

Most of you guys know me. You guys also know that I have kept both pure and hybrids in my short ray keeping past. I swing both ways on this and feel that there will always be a market for both pure and hybrids. I said it a while back that the market here is slowly changing. Some said yes I see it and others said it will never happen. Only time will tell when we get a few more generations down the line how far things will or will not get messed up.

Sorry for the ramblings. I don't put words in my head down on paper or computer very well. I can talk all day on this subject but for now I will go sit back in my little corner and watch.
 
Zoodiver said:
Race vs species is a touchy area from a biological stand point. The point could be argued we have classified them wrong, and all Amazon rays are the same species with different variations more similar to breed/race than actual individual species - but that is a WHOLE new topic.

As for the dog vs wolf, step back and look at that picture in today's world:
We are killing dogs and searching frantically to house them because there are SOOO many. We have factories/mills pumping dogs into the trade for profit that are nothing more than farms for genetic issues. While in the wild, wolf populations are lower and lower every year, with many being protected to ensure they don't go extinct.

I'd hate to see FW rays end up the same way due to human impact.
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You are right I think rays are a species and to say it's wrong is to say people from different parts of the world shouldn't marry

It's not like you are breeding a cat with a dog or a chicken with a chimp

Hybrids that mix two different fish is wrong like Arowana with a RTC


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So all Rays are one sole species? Like dogs, hence the differences between breeds?
 
Miguel said:
So all Rays are one sole species? Like dogs, hence the differences between breeds?
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Yes I would say so and after all we created all the dog breeds so why is it wrong to do the same with rays

It only becomes wrong when you are creating another new species

Different colour morphs of aro guppy Molly koi to name a few has been going on for years

I think the line should be drawn with messed up fish like parrot fish flowerhorns and bubble eye gold fish
Once we start playing god and creating new species that's when the line has been crossed


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