BD and LEO

[T1KARMANN]

If bd and Leo are the same then why even say Leo x BD as if you are saying that BD is just a high grade Leo then a Leo x BD would just be a med grade Leo

People say Leo x BD as one parent is BD the other is Leo just like a Leo x henlei one parent is Leo the other is henlei

If a BD is just a high grade Leo then that should be it but you get different grades of BD

For me BD and Leo are different everyone can think what they like but I wouldn't buy any BD without ALL the BD traits

If you like the ray buy it if not walk away if you want pure blood BD make sure it has all the traits if it doesn't then it maybe a hybrid

So much mixed up stuff coming from Asia we won't know what we are buying soon anyway in a few years time

 

[sponger_2]

if you want a pure blood bd, then buy a leo. its one in the same. its the same damn ray, just different localities/varients as others have posted. this has already been discussed before and i think it was mike (h2o) or someone that said they have seen "regular" leos with all "bd" traits. People are paying for more spots, thats all. what might be a "high grade" leo/bd to some might be crap to others as they like the "classic" leo with the clean spots.
Is a marble a totally different ray from motoro?????

 

[T1KARMANN]

And mike from h20 has got such a great rep right now hasn't he

We can all believe what we like

A p14 was classed as a small spot henlei for years

 

[dookie]

the one trait i notice no one talks about is the spotting on the pelvic fins on the bd.

 

[DavidW]

According to the the science:
All black diamonds are Leopoldi, but not all Leopoldi are black diamonds. In other words, BD is a color variant of Leopoldi.
BD has become a trade name for a Leopoldi that comes from a different area of the Xingu than most Leos ( Sao Felix area)
If you go there you can also find many that are 'in between' with their markings
The name BD was originally invented as a trap to catch a stupid vendor who had managed to place a trojan horse virus in some computers.I KNOW this because me and my Brazilian friends were the ones who came up with the BD name ( more about that and other fun trivia can be found on roggenforum http://www.roggenforum.lode.biz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2562 )

P14 was NEVER classified as a small spot Henlii, except perhaps by a hobbyist or 2 who didn't know enough to know the difference.
P14 and Henlii are from different rivers and are structurally very different. Henlii themselves have 2 distinct types, large mouth and small mouth.

 

[doviiman]

First let me say thankls all who haev chimed in on advice, great website to say the least.
This is getting deep though. I truly didn't mean to start a sh-t storm but this will be the most expensive fish I would have purchased to date so I thohght a little research would make me feel more comfortable in my selection, God know's I would hate to have paid more for something that was in fact a LEO with more dots. Again any pictures of the difference in LEO vs BD. I am hear mention of physical structure differences..

 

[DavidW]

I am hearing mention of physical structure differences..

There are none. Any difference is superficial. These differences in markings can be plotted on a Bell curve and are NOT absolute at all .

 

[T1KARMANN]

Very interesting you say p14 was never called henlei take a look at the aqua-log book in that book then look at the date the book was published and you will find that most importers were using that book as a reference guide

If BD is just a trade name for the same fish then naming rays Leo x BD is wrong then as that's classing it as a hybrid

If it is just a variant we best start naming all rays like this
Henlei x king henlei
Royal motoro x super royal motoro
P14 x P14 galaxy

And so on right

I have also been told that BD reaches a larger adult size I don't know how true this is that's why I didn't list it in my differences

 

[DavidW]

Very interesting you say p14 was never called henlei take a look at the aqua-log book in that book

read a little more ( page 78)and you will see a ray marked as Henlii, with small spots (agreed) but not labelled as a P14, but as a P12.
There are a few mistakes in that book, that is one of them. Notice that there is no Itaituba ray at all and P14 is an eclipse, which we now know is a Leopoldi variant.
The 'P' system is not a scientific valuation, and the 'R' in the 'R' numbers stands for 'Ross.
These systems were never based on structure, but only on superficial features.
Look on page 146 and you will see a bright green ray, P19, hawaiian/castexi.
It simply doesn't exist...why? because there were mistakes made in printing.
Also, Ross didn't collect any of those rays himself but relied on exporters to tell him where the came from. In fact RR stays away from ray ID as much as he can ( he has told me on numerous occasions) The exporters didn't catch them either and the fishermen don't tell where the 'sweet spots' are for fishing. The photos mostly belonged to RR but were borrowed by one of the bigger phonies out there. Andrew Camoens ( see credits at the beginning of the book) , who at one point claimed to have cloned rays, and has still never returned RR's original photos.
The book is useful, but is not the bible, and is very out of date. Scientific studies on anatomy have shown that many "species" are in fact just one species. A good example of that is the Orbignyi group, which can vary wildly in color and markings but by all the things that science uses to define species, tail structure, teeth and mouth, skeletal structure, stomach structure etc) are in fact one polymorphic species. ( Dr Getulio Rincon, University of Sao Paolo, Brazil)
Having different markings doesn't make a different species any more than being blond Vs being brunette do.

 

[ajsmith235]

wow what turned into another usual thread has gotten really good. thx T1 and DW for the insite. makes this thread good!