OK, maybe I'm partially wrong on that... but I have definitely read many times that they shouldn't be a daily feeder. They don't have as high a nutritional content like the roaches and others I mentioned, and are harder to digest.
Bearded dragon (noty idea)
- Thread starter jaws7777
- Start date
Whao that's allot.to take in. Thanks Erica I'm going to read the links and check out FB group
I can tell you right now the roaches aren't going to happen she'll freak out.
He's eating the works but won't go near any of the pellets.
Ugh man I really did not need another animal to take care of smh
I can tell you right now the roaches aren't going to happen she'll freak out.
He's eating the works but won't go near any of the pellets.
Ugh man I really did not need another animal to take care of smh
I absolutely hate crickets. They stink, are annoyingly loud in large numbers, and they get everywhere. The Gryllodes sigillatus are cleaner and quieter, but too fast for the slower moving animals like Holodactylus.
+1 for dubia/everything else. Crickets should still be offered, but there are far easier managed feeders out there.
This is going to be half rant/half reply, not at you, just about the topic (just a disclaimer).
The majority of what we base our nutritional information on for reptiles is extrapolated from domestic animals. This means for the most part, we don't know how reptiles (in general, let alone each species) metabolize different forms of nutrients, or exactly how much is needed. Now this isn't really a huge issue as their metabolic needs tend to fall in this range, but it is something to keep in mind. The nutritional information may also be slightly flawed, as one (often the cheapest) way protein is determined is through testing for total nitrogen. Dubia and some other roaches (can't remember off the top of my head) store urates as a protein source, the highest levels of which are found in males and nymphs. Not only does this skew protein levels, it can lead to numerous problems such as kidney or joint issues. This is an even bigger issue if the roaches are fed a high protein diet. Here's another paper about roaches and protein.
I'm not saying don't feed them roaches, I just wouldn't use them as the main food. The best would be to feed a variety, and not use just one animal as a "staple".
Define "easier to gutload". They will both eat pretty much anything offered. Most gutloading "recipes" are also largely guesses at best. They "include" the things needed by the animals, but they may not necessarily be in a bioavailable form before or after passing through the prey, or in the proper amounts/ratios. There is also some evidence that suggests gut-loading isn't as effective as one would think, and dusting may be more effective, specifically for calcium; see here.
If fed a high calcium diet they don't need to be dusted with calcium, however this doesn't mean they contain everything else a bearded dragon needs, let alone enough to be considered a staple.
Another side rant: Impaction is largely an over blown issue and can almost always be traced back to a different husbandry issue such as improper temps, dehydration, improper nutrition, &c. I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I'm more inclined to worry about the highly likely kidney problems and nutrient deficiencies that are a direct result of dehydration or improper diet than the chance that they might possibly get impaction after they're already weakened. Folklore husbandry can be really impeding of progress.
/end of rant
anyways, I digress.
As
Deadliestviper7
alluded to, mealworms may actually be better than crickets. They are shown to promote better growth rates in at least 2 species (Sceloporus occidentalis & Eublepharis macularius). See here, and here. Chitin has far more digestible protein than previously thought. If anything, they make a better "staple" than crickets.Also, considering the insects they eat in the wild, the chitin level shouldn't be that big of a concern.
What specifically about iceberg makes it "crap"? I'm well aware of it's nutritional content, but crap is a stretch. Granted, it has lower levels of some nutrients compared to say romaine lettuce (not a great Ca: P for example), it still contains nutrients. Is it great as a main food? no. Are there better options? of course. However, it's not useless.
Collareds and Mustard (as with other cruciferous vegetables) contains both oxalic acid and goitrogens. Oxalic acid inhibits absorption of calcium which can lead to a calcium oxalate build up, possibly resulting in kidney failure. Goitrogens interferes with iodine uptake in the thyroid gland, which leads to goiter. Another paper.
If I remember correctly, endive also contains oxalic acid, but it's something like 25% the level that collareds have.
You can still feed these, just don't use them as the main source of greens.
Also, they do not need baths unless they're physically dirty - aka poop stomping. They don't absorb water through baths (as previously thought) - so it only helps if they physically drink when in the bath. Sometimes baths will encourage them to poop, and you want them to poop when they're ready, not prematurely when they bathe, or they won't get the full benefits and hydration from their foods. Some beardies drink water in their cages, mine doesn't. Some people will put a little drop of water on the tip of their nose and they might lick it off. Mine has never done that - he totally ignores it. So mine gets all of his hydration through his food - remember, they are DESERT animals.If poop urates are really white, and the fat pads on top of their heads are plump, they're nicely hydrated. If yellowish urates and flat head, not getting enough.
Technically they inhabit xeric shrublands, dry woodlands, as well as deserts
Agreed.
all mentioned above.
Just don't tell her they're roaches, but "tropical beetles"
What pellets are you offering? Sometimes they don't take them until they get older, other times they'll never touch the stuff. You can try adding it to the greens, however I'd still leave a bowl of just pellets incase it decides to pick at it.
Good points above - and I agree that variety is key with these guys. As far as "staple" I just mean that if you have to have regulars, which we all do for ease, there are certain things that can have better benefit than others. But again, the more variety the better.
Calling iceburg lettuce crap is my own prejudice. I don't eat it myself because I can eat other things that are tastier and have more nutrients. People just read 'salad' and then give their beardies iceburg lettuce several times a week... there are other things that they could give several times a week that would give the dragon more. I guess that's my point.
With the cricket/roach gutloading thing, I think it was something like crickets digest their food in 2ish hours, where the roaches do in 12ish, so unless you are careful in when you feed your feeders relative to when you feed the reptile, you might be getting less nutrition into the reptile via feeder. ? And I never feed my feeders protein.. only veggies. And I do dust them. I try my best. My beardie won't eat fruits for example, so I try to give my feeders fruits when I can.
Frank, I was super leery about the roaches too. But these are different - not like the ones we think of here in the US. They look almost kind of like pill bugs... and again, they are quiet, don't jump, don't fly, don't really climb, don't bite. I think she'll hate crickets more. I do prefer all of the worms, but I deal with the roaches.
Anyway, thanks for all of the information V Viridis - points all well taken. I do realize they come from varied environments, but my point is that they don't need baths very often.
Calling iceburg lettuce crap is my own prejudice. I don't eat it myself because I can eat other things that are tastier and have more nutrients.
People just read 'salad' and then give their beardies iceburg lettuce several times a week... there are other things that they could give several times a week that would give the dragon more. I guess that's my point.With the cricket/roach gutloading thing, I think it was something like crickets digest their food in 2ish hours, where the roaches do in 12ish, so unless you are careful in when you feed your feeders relative to when you feed the reptile, you might be getting less nutrition into the reptile via feeder. ? And I never feed my feeders protein.. only veggies. And I do dust them. I try my best. My beardie won't eat fruits for example, so I try to give my feeders fruits when I can.
Frank, I was super leery about the roaches too. But these are different - not like the ones we think of here in the US. They look almost kind of like pill bugs... and again, they are quiet, don't jump, don't fly, don't really climb, don't bite. I think she'll hate crickets more.
I do prefer all of the worms, but I deal with the roaches. Anyway, thanks for all of the information V Viridis - points all well taken. I do realize they come from varied environments, but my point is that they don't need baths very often.
I absolutely hate crickets. They stink, are annoyingly loud in large numbers, and they get everywhere. The Gryllodes sigillatus are cleaner and quieter, but too fast for the slower moving animals like Holodactylus.
+1 for dubia/everything else. Crickets should still be offered, but there are far easier managed feeders out there.
This is going to be half rant/half reply, not at you, just about the topic (just a disclaimer).
The majority of what we base our nutritional information on for reptiles is extrapolated from domestic animals. This means for the most part, we don't know how reptiles (in general, let alone each species) metabolize different forms of nutrients, or exactly how much is needed. Now this isn't really a huge issue as their metabolic needs tend to fall in this range, but it is something to keep in mind. The nutritional information may also be slightly flawed, as one (often the cheapest) way protein is determined is through testing for total nitrogen. Dubia and some other roaches (can't remember off the top of my head) store urates as a protein source, the highest levels of which are found in males and nymphs. Not only does this skew protein levels, it can lead to numerous problems such as kidney or joint issues. This is an even bigger issue if the roaches are fed a high protein diet. Here's another paper about roaches and protein.
I'm not saying don't feed them roaches, I just wouldn't use them as the main food. The best would be to feed a variety, and not use just one animal as a "staple".
Define "easier to gutload". They will both eat pretty much anything offered. Most gutloading "recipes" are also largely guesses at best. They "include" the things needed by the animals, but they may not necessarily be in a bioavailable form before or after passing through the prey, or in the proper amounts/ratios. There is also some evidence that suggests gut-loading isn't as effective as one would think, and dusting may be more effective, specifically for calcium; see here.
If fed a high calcium diet they don't need to be dusted with calcium, however this doesn't mean they contain everything else a bearded dragon needs, let alone enough to be considered a staple.
Another side rant: Impaction is largely an over blown issue and can almost always be traced back to a different husbandry issue such as improper temps, dehydration, improper nutrition, &c. I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but I'm more inclined to worry about the highly likely kidney problems and nutrient deficiencies that are a direct result of dehydration or improper diet than the chance that they might possibly get impaction after they're already weakened. Folklore husbandry can be really impeding of progress.
/end of rant
anyways, I digress.
As
Also, considering the insects they eat in the wild, the chitin level shouldn't be that big of a concern.
What specifically about iceberg makes it "crap"? I'm well aware of it's nutritional content, but crap is a stretch. Granted, it has lower levels of some nutrients compared to say romaine lettuce (not a great Ca: P for example), it still contains nutrients. Is it great as a main food? no. Are there better options? of course. However, it's not useless.
Collareds and Mustard (as with other cruciferous vegetables) contains both oxalic acid and goitrogens. Oxalic acid inhibits absorption of calcium which can lead to a calcium oxalate build up, possibly resulting in kidney failure. Goitrogens interferes with iodine uptake in the thyroid gland, which leads to goiter. Another paper.
If I remember correctly, endive also contains oxalic acid, but it's something like 25% the level that collareds have.
You can still feed these, just don't use them as the main source of greens.
Technically they inhabit xeric shrublands, dry woodlands, as well as deserts
Agreed.
all mentioned above.
Just don't tell her they're roaches, but "tropical beetles"
What pellets are you offering? Sometimes they don't take them until they get older, other times they'll never touch the stuff. You can try adding it to the greens, however I'd still leave a bowl of just pellets incase it decides to pick at it.
Perfect write up,
As adults I also gave my bearded dragons one or two dried krill no more than once a week
Thx for the replies guys.
Confused tho... Does he get veggies now or not if so how often.
He does drink the water that we drop on his nose.
I flooded my basement twice during wc's if she says no roaches...no roaches lol
Pellets are zoo med juvie bearded dragon
How much should we be feeding him ? In meal worms and cricket numbers per day.
Also do we dust (calcium) all his meals ?
Confused tho... Does he get veggies now or not if so how often.
He does drink the water that we drop on his nose.
I flooded my basement twice during wc's if she says no roaches...no roaches lol
Pellets are zoo med juvie bearded dragon
How much should we be feeding him ? In meal worms and cricket numbers per day.
Also do we dust (calcium) all his meals ?
- Veggies every day for life. They just get more bugs as babies if you're looking at it as a ratio, but they need veggies as babies, plus it helps get them on good eating habits early. Some people feed veggies first when they're hungry because they know they'll eat their bugs. I got a dragon as an adult so I didn't have to deal with the bug heavy phase, thankfully.
- Live feeders:
- 0-6 months old - Feed 2/3x Daily. For 5-mins
- 6-12 months old - Feed 1x Daily. For 5-mins.
- 12 months on - Feed 3x a week. With a treat item day in-between if you please.
I personally like the Repashy Calcium Plus, which is calcium + multivitamin. My beardie doesn't mind it at all. It kind of smells sweet. Not sure how it tastes - haven't tried it.
I like it because I just use it all the time an ddont' have to remember when I supplemented with what.- Dusting: From the files in the BDN FB group. Proper UVB lighting is vital for these guys. Again, a T5 tube mounted inside the screen is what you want. Proper lighting helps them get the D3 they need.
Babies to 6 months feeding 2/3x a day.
Using a T5 HO UV tube lamp with a Reflector INSIDE the screen. If using a T5 12%, your Beardie will need to be around 12-15 inches from the UV tube.
Dust Plain Calcium (NO D3) 5 days a week. Then a multi-vitamin 2 days a week. A extra dose of Calcium with D3 1/2 times a month for an extra boost if you wish.
6 months to 12 months, feeding once daily.
Using a T5 HO UV tube lamp with a Reflector.
Dust Plain Calcium (NO D3) 3 days a week. Then a multi-vitamin 2 days a week. A extra dose of Calcium with D3 1/2 times a month for an extra boost if you wish. (Or use Arcadia EarthPro-A, or Repashy Calcium Plus 5x a week. Nothing else)
12 months (Adult). Feeding 3 or 4 x a week.
Using a T5 UV tube lamp with a Reflector.
Dust Plain calcium (No D3) every 3rd feed (so once or twice a week only) Multi-vitamin 2x a Month. (Or use Arcadia, or Repashy every feed. Nothing else)
Using a T5 HO UV tube lamp with a Reflector INSIDE the screen. If using a T5 12%, your Beardie will need to be around 12-15 inches from the UV tube.
Dust Plain Calcium (NO D3) 5 days a week. Then a multi-vitamin 2 days a week. A extra dose of Calcium with D3 1/2 times a month for an extra boost if you wish.
6 months to 12 months, feeding once daily.
Using a T5 HO UV tube lamp with a Reflector.
Dust Plain Calcium (NO D3) 3 days a week. Then a multi-vitamin 2 days a week. A extra dose of Calcium with D3 1/2 times a month for an extra boost if you wish. (Or use Arcadia EarthPro-A, or Repashy Calcium Plus 5x a week. Nothing else)
12 months (Adult). Feeding 3 or 4 x a week.
Using a T5 UV tube lamp with a Reflector.
Dust Plain calcium (No D3) every 3rd feed (so once or twice a week only) Multi-vitamin 2x a Month. (Or use Arcadia, or Repashy every feed. Nothing else)
