Black rays, hybrdization, and locations. P14, BD, leos, henleii

[andersp90]

Like i said, never say never.

 

[Miles]

Like i said, never say never.

Yep.. my exporter offered me 3 pcs of Green Phantom Pleco.. FROM LIMA, PERU.. harvest from Iquitos!!! They are usually found an area a few thousand miles to the east that's a long travel!

 

[michael]

Glad the thread is getting some attention. Its kinda liek I meant this could have taken years to do but even if two male leos hot to where henleii are abundent and impregnating 5-6 henleii... Those obviously will be these hybrid rays which will always mature and keep producing and this "leo/henleii" from years upon years ago mated back to pure bred henleii could hive it a more traditional pattern but at the same time be why its say a "king" henleii or even just why some come with so many spots and others are just a little bland. BDs for instance ar elike spectacularly patterned leos but have henleii type under belly. A henleii could have paired with a leo and the spotted underside could have been a dominant trait to keep even after years and years of the hybrid mating back to pure bred leos.. Doesn't a mature leo/henleii seem to have more dominant adult coloration than a leo but also walays seem to have more spots? I remember, correct me if I am wrong Mike H2O, but when you were first starting with your facitlty you had a large group of henleii males and females together... not so much luck immediately and you threw a male pearl in the mix. The first two batches of pups were hybrids so I dont think a ray particularly cares who it mates with, its nature making it want to breed. Kinda like if looks didnt matter to us humans.... would it be any different to mate with an asian, spanish, white, black, etc if we weren't the most spoiled and molded species alive?

 

[vamptrev]

ive argued this b4. with all these rivers being connected, how is it not possible?

no one can provide facts or proof that its "not possible"

also on the last thread someone said they imported leo/hens straight from the wild.

all im sayin is u cant rule it out like alot of people do, w out proof...

 

[JD7.62]

Check out these maps.. seasonal flooding makes migration through the flooded forest very possible, even if the rivers have rapids near their outflow areas..


First map is the area that black rays come from.. helps put it in perspective. Remember, Brazil is the largest country in the world, these rivers are far apart.

Leos from Xingu
Henlei from Tocantins
P14 from Tapajos

Second Map shows the flooded forests from a satellite image.. the blue areas are completed submersed in water. The darker the blue, the deeper the water.. It is the area near Manaus, but most all of those 3 river systems will become flooded depending on the area.

Also.. a dam was built in the Tocantins that apparently has isolated a very large group of Henlei, to the point where they have become a nuisance to local fisherman. Apparently fisherman are reporting raised levels of populations behind the dam.


One thing to ponder and consider is the thought of a single male species (say Leopldi for example) is to cross a very narrow bridge of flooded areas, only to become isolated in a completely new tributary system during the next dry season. Naturally, it will attempt to breed with other species if it can find no company of it's own.. So it makes me wonder if a single rogue Male Leopoldi could infect an ENTIRE river systems potamotrygon population by pregnating 3-4 females in a single sseason.. and then effects the colour pattern of that species for many generatinos to come... and to think, this scenario could happen EVERY flooded season, more than we think..

Miles, your maps are flawed. The second one just shows the far western point of the Amazon, far from the XIngu and Tocantins. The rivers are not flooding as you say they are. Plus Brazil isnt exactly the largest country in the world.

Also look at other species. Lets take the genus Geophagus. These guys can breed with each other but they arent. Species found in the Xingu are NOT found and breeding with species found in the Tocantins.

Do some research on the Xingu and Tocantins. They flow into deep gorges and through water falls that flood waters would NEVER go over.

I'm not saying its impossible. My argument that in recent times (again on the geologic scale) the Xingu and the Tocantins and the species found in each river, have been very isolated from one another. Of course at one point in time these rays all had a common ancestor so maybe that is why we are see traits that could lead us to believe in hybrids.

Also we can not compare this to human breeding! lol. Asians, Hispanics, Whites, blacks, ect are all ONE species. Its more like Homo sapiens breeding with neanderthals, lol maybe we could even argue that isnt even a good enough comparison as neanderthals are now considered a sub-species of H.sapiens...weird huh.

 

[vamptrev]

if black diamonds were a diff species then leo or henlei, should they be on the endangered list or is there an abundance of them somewhere?

 

[JD7.62]

if black diamonds were a diff species then leo or henlei, should they be on the endangered list or is there an abundance of them somewhere?

Phenotypic traits don't necessarily make a species. Blond haired, blue eyed, beauties with a perfect 36-25-36 are rare and beautiful like a BD, but it doesnt mean they are endangered!

I don't think anyone has posted in this thread that can prove BDs are nothing more then blond hair blue eyed beauty of the leo world.

 

[turkeyboy85]

Phenotypic traits don't necessarily make a species. Blond haired, blue eyed, beauties with a perfect 36-25-36 are rare and beautiful like a BD, but it doesnt mean they are endangered!

I don't think anyone has posted in this thread that can prove BDs are nothing more then blond hair blue eyed beauty of the leo world.

Also we can not compare this to human breeding! lol. Asians, Hispanics, Whites, blacks, ect are all ONE species. Its more like Homo sapiens breeding with neanderthals, lol maybe we could even argue that isnt even a good enough comparison as neanderthals are now considered a sub-species of H.sapiens...weird huh.

 

[JD7.62]

Phenotypic traits don't necessarily make a species. Blond haired, blue eyed, beauties with a perfect 36-25-36 are rare and beautiful like a BD, but it doesnt mean they are endangered!

I don't think anyone has posted in this thread that can prove BDs are nothing more then blond hair blue eyed beauty of the leo world.

Are serious? Do you not see the difference between the two analogies?

 

[turkeyboy85]

i do... but i think its a lil funny that two posts earlier you were saying we shouldnt compair them to humans