Bloat battle (day to day)
- Thread starter robmcd
- Start date
The only success I've ever had was with Clout. I used prazi once and got no results. Epsom salt and clout with massive water changes works..as well as anything will. Bloat is nearly always death IME. I'm treating a 9" Chuco Micropthalmus with that right now. It worked when they were about 4" so I'm hoping it works this time as well.
Sometimes too much advice is a bad thing, but, I feel compelled to add my two cents worth.
Praziquantel is a treatment for intestinal worms (flukes and tapeworms). It may have some indirect activity against bloat, but it seems to target intestinal worms and is also used on dogs and cats. Clout is a good but sometimes harmful fish medicine (it is actually several meds in one) and I have used it in a "kill or cure" final act of desperation. I think of Clout as the "Daisy Cutter" bomb of fish meds. Don't get me wrong, I like the stuff when the chips are down and you are willing to do anything. If I see white, stringy poop I think of bloat caused by a buildup of Hexamita, which is an inestinal protozoan parasite of fish. It is always in the gut, but under stressful conditions (like shipping) the fish's gut gets out of whack and the Hexamita becomes overpopulated and is a liability. Metronidazole is used for treating Hexamita, so that is what I would use. All the other comments about epsom salts, water changes, and raising the heat are all good ones and I have used them in conjunction with metronidazole with success.
I received two haits from Rapps two years ago. Both had white, stringy poop coming out of them right out of the shipping bag. One fish died that night, the other recovered after 2 months of: 1) 2, 50% water changes per week; 2) temp raised to between 86-90F (and haits can take that fairly well); 3) epsom salts at a tablespoon per 10 gallons; and 4) lots of metronidazole. I think it is fairly hard to overdose metronidazole. The fish did not eat for a month or more, and when it started eating it started very slowly. Once it started eating I fed it what I wanted to, regardless of protein content and the fish is over 12" now and I have posted pics of him.
Praziquantel is a treatment for intestinal worms (flukes and tapeworms). It may have some indirect activity against bloat, but it seems to target intestinal worms and is also used on dogs and cats. Clout is a good but sometimes harmful fish medicine (it is actually several meds in one) and I have used it in a "kill or cure" final act of desperation. I think of Clout as the "Daisy Cutter" bomb of fish meds. Don't get me wrong, I like the stuff when the chips are down and you are willing to do anything. If I see white, stringy poop I think of bloat caused by a buildup of Hexamita, which is an inestinal protozoan parasite of fish. It is always in the gut, but under stressful conditions (like shipping) the fish's gut gets out of whack and the Hexamita becomes overpopulated and is a liability. Metronidazole is used for treating Hexamita, so that is what I would use. All the other comments about epsom salts, water changes, and raising the heat are all good ones and I have used them in conjunction with metronidazole with success.
I received two haits from Rapps two years ago. Both had white, stringy poop coming out of them right out of the shipping bag. One fish died that night, the other recovered after 2 months of: 1) 2, 50% water changes per week; 2) temp raised to between 86-90F (and haits can take that fairly well); 3) epsom salts at a tablespoon per 10 gallons; and 4) lots of metronidazole. I think it is fairly hard to overdose metronidazole. The fish did not eat for a month or more, and when it started eating it started very slowly. Once it started eating I fed it what I wanted to, regardless of protein content and the fish is over 12" now and I have posted pics of him.
Rob, when I kept Tropheus (15-20 Years Ago), and had issues with bloat I was advised to use Metronidazole
also. Not saying Prazi wont help, but I know the Metro does. If caught early enough.
I lost over 50% percent of my colonies ( 25 ) before I realized what was going on and
started using it. Got mine from a vet.
Here is an article from Oddball suggesting Treatment of Bloat using Metronidazole
Also here is the link:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45617&highlight=Treating+Bloat
BLOAT - Photos & Treatment
To treat Bloat, the plan of attack is:
Metronidazole and water changes, water changes, water changes!!
1. Remove carbon/resins from filter.
2. Perform a 30-50% water change (reduces free-floating bacteria population)
3. Add salt (teaspoon to a tablespoon per gallon) to aid the fish's osmotic regulation processes.
4. Treat with 250mg/20gallons of Metronidazole (Flagyl)
5. Leave for 3 days and do not feed.
6. After 3 days, perform another large water change.
7. Replace the salt.
8. Add full dosage of Metronidazole.
9. Wait another 3 days. During this phase, the bloat should be decreasing in appearance. In large fish, the water may take on an ammonia odor from the high volume of urea the fish should now be producing due to reducing the bloat and recovering renal activity.
10. 3rd day, another water change. Also, replace the salt and redose the metronidazole (full dose). If the fish looks to be well on the road to recovery you can offer a small feeding each day.
11. Another water change on the 3rd day. No meds but, I'd recommend the salt. You should be clear now.
This is the treatment I use on my africans, puffers, and my lungfishes/polypteridae. Knock on wood that it's worked every single time.
An old school method of treating bloat is with the use of epsom salt at the rate of 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons of tank volume. This method has been successful but, takes longer to treat than by using Metronidazole.
Note in the pics the abdominal distention caused by the bacteria and in a severe case, such as this, the scales are pushed away from the body.
Tokis-Phoenix adds: (For full freshwater (aka sweetwater))
There are many things that can cause bloating, constipation and dropsy being the main two.
Dropsy;
The problem with treating this disease is that there are a number of "potential" causes: bacterial infection, parasites, cancerous tumors, virus', internal fungal infections or sudden temperature drop of more than 3 degrees.
If the cause is bacterial, the swelling typically comes on pretty rapidly. If swelling is gradual then one or more of the other potential causes are more likely. Unfortunately, treatment is most often useless at this point due to the advanced state of the disease process. When the illness, whatever the cause, has progressed far enough to cause internal swelling, the concomitant internal damage is usually too extensive to be repairable.
The latest research has shown that if the disease cause is bacterial and if the disease process is caught early enough, treatment with Romet B, a broad spectrum antibacterial, *may* be effective when used concurrent with an increase in water temperature to 84-86ºF for 2 weeks minimum.
BE CERTAIN to maintain HIGH OXYGEN LEVELS during such treatment since at these temperatures, water holds significantly less oxygen at these higher water temperatures. One of the suspected bacterial precursors to the disease process -- Aeromonas, is killed at these temperatures.
Concurrently add 1/8 teaspoon of EPSOM SALT -- per 5 gallons of water . Feeding foods soaked in ERYTHROMYCIN will kill the second suspected bacteria, Mycobacterium. In rare cases popeye has been found to be caused by Edwardsiella etarda. This is found *only* in fish that have been bred in outdoor ponds -- the functional bacteria in this case is carried by frogs. While fair to good results in treatment have been found by feeding Romet B., even better results have been found using injectable chloramphenicol or amakacin. This is best done by your veterinarian.
If parasites are a known cause, treat for them first for 3 days increasing the temperature to 86ºF as fast as possible.
EPSOM SALT may help reduce the internal pressure caused by the swelling. Extremely good aeration is necessary here due to the use of such high temperatures.
NEVER USE SALT (sodium chloride, a.k.a. aquarium salt) for treatment of dropsy. This will KILL your fish in a very short time. The affected fish are already having a difficult time getting rid of salts due to kidney dysfunction. This causes the blown up appearance and concurrent scale standing. The osmotic imbalance caused by addition of sodium to your tank water will make this condition far worse.
EPSOM SALT on the other hand, does not pass through the walls of the gut or gills and will extract water OUT of the surrounding tissue into the gut where it *may* be excreted.
also. Not saying Prazi wont help, but I know the Metro does. If caught early enough.
I lost over 50% percent of my colonies ( 25 ) before I realized what was going on and
started using it. Got mine from a vet.
Here is an article from Oddball suggesting Treatment of Bloat using Metronidazole
Also here is the link:
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45617&highlight=Treating+Bloat
BLOAT - Photos & Treatment
To treat Bloat, the plan of attack is:
Metronidazole and water changes, water changes, water changes!!
1. Remove carbon/resins from filter.
2. Perform a 30-50% water change (reduces free-floating bacteria population)
3. Add salt (teaspoon to a tablespoon per gallon) to aid the fish's osmotic regulation processes.
4. Treat with 250mg/20gallons of Metronidazole (Flagyl)
5. Leave for 3 days and do not feed.
6. After 3 days, perform another large water change.
7. Replace the salt.
8. Add full dosage of Metronidazole.
9. Wait another 3 days. During this phase, the bloat should be decreasing in appearance. In large fish, the water may take on an ammonia odor from the high volume of urea the fish should now be producing due to reducing the bloat and recovering renal activity.
10. 3rd day, another water change. Also, replace the salt and redose the metronidazole (full dose). If the fish looks to be well on the road to recovery you can offer a small feeding each day.
11. Another water change on the 3rd day. No meds but, I'd recommend the salt. You should be clear now.
This is the treatment I use on my africans, puffers, and my lungfishes/polypteridae. Knock on wood that it's worked every single time.
An old school method of treating bloat is with the use of epsom salt at the rate of 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons of tank volume. This method has been successful but, takes longer to treat than by using Metronidazole.
Note in the pics the abdominal distention caused by the bacteria and in a severe case, such as this, the scales are pushed away from the body.
Tokis-Phoenix adds: (For full freshwater (aka sweetwater))
There are many things that can cause bloating, constipation and dropsy being the main two.
Dropsy;
The problem with treating this disease is that there are a number of "potential" causes: bacterial infection, parasites, cancerous tumors, virus', internal fungal infections or sudden temperature drop of more than 3 degrees.
If the cause is bacterial, the swelling typically comes on pretty rapidly. If swelling is gradual then one or more of the other potential causes are more likely. Unfortunately, treatment is most often useless at this point due to the advanced state of the disease process. When the illness, whatever the cause, has progressed far enough to cause internal swelling, the concomitant internal damage is usually too extensive to be repairable.
The latest research has shown that if the disease cause is bacterial and if the disease process is caught early enough, treatment with Romet B, a broad spectrum antibacterial, *may* be effective when used concurrent with an increase in water temperature to 84-86ºF for 2 weeks minimum.
BE CERTAIN to maintain HIGH OXYGEN LEVELS during such treatment since at these temperatures, water holds significantly less oxygen at these higher water temperatures. One of the suspected bacterial precursors to the disease process -- Aeromonas, is killed at these temperatures.
Concurrently add 1/8 teaspoon of EPSOM SALT -- per 5 gallons of water . Feeding foods soaked in ERYTHROMYCIN will kill the second suspected bacteria, Mycobacterium. In rare cases popeye has been found to be caused by Edwardsiella etarda. This is found *only* in fish that have been bred in outdoor ponds -- the functional bacteria in this case is carried by frogs. While fair to good results in treatment have been found by feeding Romet B., even better results have been found using injectable chloramphenicol or amakacin. This is best done by your veterinarian.
If parasites are a known cause, treat for them first for 3 days increasing the temperature to 86ºF as fast as possible.
EPSOM SALT may help reduce the internal pressure caused by the swelling. Extremely good aeration is necessary here due to the use of such high temperatures.
NEVER USE SALT (sodium chloride, a.k.a. aquarium salt) for treatment of dropsy. This will KILL your fish in a very short time. The affected fish are already having a difficult time getting rid of salts due to kidney dysfunction. This causes the blown up appearance and concurrent scale standing. The osmotic imbalance caused by addition of sodium to your tank water will make this condition far worse.
EPSOM SALT on the other hand, does not pass through the walls of the gut or gills and will extract water OUT of the surrounding tissue into the gut where it *may* be excreted.
Well, hope your finger is feeling better. Like Peathenster mentioned I have used jungle labs parasite clear any time I see white stringy poop. It has prazi and metro and I have had good success with it. It is also very cheap and readily available compaired to other medications. I would recommend you buy some of the medicated food just for future fish orders. It's always good to feed them medicated food at first.
Thanks sooo much for all the guidance guys. I feel better knowing that Darth Odos haits didnt eat for a month. I think my beanis are coming on 2 weeks. Im getting a little low on prazi so I might just make the gradual switch to metro next week. I have the water at 86 to 88 degrees and am doing epsom salts at 1 tbsp per 5 gal. By the end of the week I will have done 200% WCs for the tank. On the bright side all of the WCs are really stimulating the growth and coloration of my carpintis trio as well as getting the Tapajos O heads to spawn and lay a huge batch of eggs. The little escondidos are also forming a pair amongst themselves and doing the little mating dance at 4.5''. Time to get some espresso and get busy with todays WC. Oh and JGentry, my finger is F%^#ED! Its a swollen , bandaged, blood seeping mess that hurts like hell. Im going to tend bar at work today with it though and continue the WCs. It would hurt more to lose the beani....
Just an observation
Many of the Central American cichlids prone to bloat, seem to come from areas where they are the only species of cichlid in their habitat, istlantum, beanii and haitiensus to name a few (other than introduced Tilapia).
When I have tried to raise haitiensus in a community, all but 1 of many, have died.
When raising them in a separate tank with uncompetative fish such as live bearers, or in divided compartments, the survival rate (although not 100%) goes way up.
My normal routine is twice per week 40% to 50% water changes, and trying to match habitat perameters (temps in mid to high 80s for haits), and plenty of aeration in the form of protein skimming.
Many of the Central American cichlids prone to bloat, seem to come from areas where they are the only species of cichlid in their habitat, istlantum, beanii and haitiensus to name a few (other than introduced Tilapia).
When I have tried to raise haitiensus in a community, all but 1 of many, have died.
When raising them in a separate tank with uncompetative fish such as live bearers, or in divided compartments, the survival rate (although not 100%) goes way up.
My normal routine is twice per week 40% to 50% water changes, and trying to match habitat perameters (temps in mid to high 80s for haits), and plenty of aeration in the form of protein skimming.
Thanks duanes, but ATM I only have the 1 community tank. I just hit up a buddy for 1 of his cycled 10gal tanks and Ill probably get it tonight.
