Mangroves are a MUCH better nitrate remover in salt or fresh water. I would recommend them over everything (besides water changes, of course).
Bringing down Nitrates - A miracle cure?
- Thread starter 95Harley
- Start date
Hi guys,
I am a bit of SW expert having kept successful reef tanks for over 25 years and having propagated soft corals way back in the 80's. (for a little history of me)
The technique uses sugar(cheapest, Glucose(moderate costs), or Vodka(most refined source of carbon). The technique is known as "Carbon Loading".
What takes place is that the Sugar type substances are like Meth for bacteria. Specifically "Heterotrophic, obligatory feeders." These heterotrophs live deep in the sand bed in very small numbers. The deeper a sand bed the more heterotrophs can exists. Fir simplistic reasons we split these bacs into 2 groups...Anaerobic(which means lives in oxygen deficient gradients, not 0ppm O2) and aerobic(which thrive in oxygen rich environments, anything above 4ppm Dissolved O2).
When the sugar is added in small doses it contains 19 molecules of ATP. This is just enough to fuel a population explosion of heterotrophic bacteria. When this bacteria rapidly reproduce they become visible to the naked eye as cloudy water and usually have a maximum life span of 72 hours.
During their life cycle and as they are reproducing they are consuming/respirating a lot of oxygen from the water and giving off/respirating back CO2 as a by product. The weird thing is they are obligatory feeders(meaning they respirate/feed/breathe by using only one food/fuel source). The food of choice is the Nitrate ion*. However, they do not use all the nitrate. They only take 1 atom of oxygen from the nitrate compound. So, you have Nitrate(NO3) that gets one atom consumed for respiration and leaves you with Nitrite(NO2). The aerobic bacs convert this quickly/instantly back to Nitrate and the cycle continues. However, the process is incredibly rapid and Nitrous oxide are released as small bubbles that are harmless and return to the air in the room.
This process repeats itself over and over again until 1 of 2 things exhaust. Either the ATP molecules are reduced and the fuel for the population explosion can not continue or the Nitrate ion* is reduced to a point of being unusable to sustain the population of heterotrophs. At this point(usually 72 hours) the cloudy water clears and your nitrate levels are lower(but hardly ever 0ppm).
So the first thing that comes to mind is...if I use more sugar/vodka I will get more Bacs and reduce even more nitrate! Wrong!!! Too much sugar/vodka will overdose the system and destroy the oxygen content and suffocate everything!!! Your tank will crash and die!!!
That is why things work so well in SW. Because most tanks today have the deeper sand beds(which work in FW alkaline tanks above 7.2 pH) and the protein skimmer is removing excess DOC's bound to air bubbles and is increasing or maintaining oxygen levels. The deeper sand beds will have more heterotrophs remember?
This will work in FW all day long! I do it just to maintain bac counts.(population densities). However, nothing will ever replace the need for a water change. The more often the water is changed and the larger the percentage at each changing will make your tank healthier than any technique or filter! Dilution is the solution!!!
So, let's say you are religious about using this technique and keep nitrates below 5ppm. You will now think, I don't have algae problems and my PO4 and NO3 levels are great!!! I don't need to change the water. WRONG!!!
There are other heterotrophs that are evil like septicemia bacs and others. You can test your water all day long and get good readings but you still have 1 or 2 fish in a community tank getting sick and dying.(usually a bacterial based infection). But my water is clean! Why are the fish getting sick?
Because the bad bacteria that are invisible to our naked eye(need microscope to see) are in high densities because there are compounds and DOC's(dissolved organics) in the water and substrate from fish foods/feces/etc. that are feeding the bad guys and allowing them to wear down your fish and kill them slowly. Other signs are red gills, ulcers, split fins, hole in the head, etc.
You think it makes no sense because you use sugars and they clean the water. But in reality they only remove certain compounds thru bacterial respiration. Your water may be clear as a bell, but is really polluted. Water changes are the only way to counter this problem.
Every Public Aquarium has biologist on staff that take water samples from each system each day and check the bacterial counts of the water to ascertain the health of the system. This data is coupled with water params for a total picture of what is happening. Any problems and water changes are done that day.
So, sugar/glucose/vodka work. They work better in high flow tanks with alkaline water and deep sand beds(4"+). But in the end the water change is the best method for maintaining a healthy aquarium.
HTH, Rich
I am a bit of SW expert having kept successful reef tanks for over 25 years and having propagated soft corals way back in the 80's. (for a little history of me)
The technique uses sugar(cheapest, Glucose(moderate costs), or Vodka(most refined source of carbon). The technique is known as "Carbon Loading".
What takes place is that the Sugar type substances are like Meth for bacteria. Specifically "Heterotrophic, obligatory feeders." These heterotrophs live deep in the sand bed in very small numbers. The deeper a sand bed the more heterotrophs can exists. Fir simplistic reasons we split these bacs into 2 groups...Anaerobic(which means lives in oxygen deficient gradients, not 0ppm O2) and aerobic(which thrive in oxygen rich environments, anything above 4ppm Dissolved O2).
When the sugar is added in small doses it contains 19 molecules of ATP. This is just enough to fuel a population explosion of heterotrophic bacteria. When this bacteria rapidly reproduce they become visible to the naked eye as cloudy water and usually have a maximum life span of 72 hours.
During their life cycle and as they are reproducing they are consuming/respirating a lot of oxygen from the water and giving off/respirating back CO2 as a by product. The weird thing is they are obligatory feeders(meaning they respirate/feed/breathe by using only one food/fuel source). The food of choice is the Nitrate ion*. However, they do not use all the nitrate. They only take 1 atom of oxygen from the nitrate compound. So, you have Nitrate(NO3) that gets one atom consumed for respiration and leaves you with Nitrite(NO2). The aerobic bacs convert this quickly/instantly back to Nitrate and the cycle continues. However, the process is incredibly rapid and Nitrous oxide are released as small bubbles that are harmless and return to the air in the room.
This process repeats itself over and over again until 1 of 2 things exhaust. Either the ATP molecules are reduced and the fuel for the population explosion can not continue or the Nitrate ion* is reduced to a point of being unusable to sustain the population of heterotrophs. At this point(usually 72 hours) the cloudy water clears and your nitrate levels are lower(but hardly ever 0ppm).
So the first thing that comes to mind is...if I use more sugar/vodka I will get more Bacs and reduce even more nitrate! Wrong!!! Too much sugar/vodka will overdose the system and destroy the oxygen content and suffocate everything!!! Your tank will crash and die!!!
That is why things work so well in SW. Because most tanks today have the deeper sand beds(which work in FW alkaline tanks above 7.2 pH) and the protein skimmer is removing excess DOC's bound to air bubbles and is increasing or maintaining oxygen levels. The deeper sand beds will have more heterotrophs remember?
This will work in FW all day long! I do it just to maintain bac counts.(population densities). However, nothing will ever replace the need for a water change. The more often the water is changed and the larger the percentage at each changing will make your tank healthier than any technique or filter! Dilution is the solution!!!
So, let's say you are religious about using this technique and keep nitrates below 5ppm. You will now think, I don't have algae problems and my PO4 and NO3 levels are great!!! I don't need to change the water. WRONG!!!
There are other heterotrophs that are evil like septicemia bacs and others. You can test your water all day long and get good readings but you still have 1 or 2 fish in a community tank getting sick and dying.(usually a bacterial based infection). But my water is clean! Why are the fish getting sick?
Because the bad bacteria that are invisible to our naked eye(need microscope to see) are in high densities because there are compounds and DOC's(dissolved organics) in the water and substrate from fish foods/feces/etc. that are feeding the bad guys and allowing them to wear down your fish and kill them slowly. Other signs are red gills, ulcers, split fins, hole in the head, etc.
You think it makes no sense because you use sugars and they clean the water. But in reality they only remove certain compounds thru bacterial respiration. Your water may be clear as a bell, but is really polluted. Water changes are the only way to counter this problem.
Every Public Aquarium has biologist on staff that take water samples from each system each day and check the bacterial counts of the water to ascertain the health of the system. This data is coupled with water params for a total picture of what is happening. Any problems and water changes are done that day.
So, sugar/glucose/vodka work. They work better in high flow tanks with alkaline water and deep sand beds(4"+). But in the end the water change is the best method for maintaining a healthy aquarium.
HTH, Rich
Thank You Mr Firemouth for a very interesting, and clarifying, read! Very well writen, and solidly put and stated.
If more were needed, a very strong argument for those WC's!
If more were needed, a very strong argument for those WC's!
the sugar or alcohol is used as feed for the anoxic bacteria....
this is similar to the food i use in my fw nitrate filter....
it seems to me the sugar will only help if there is some where for the anoxic bacteria to grow.. otherwise it may feed unwanted aerobic bacteria
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115444
.
this is similar to the food i use in my fw nitrate filter....
it seems to me the sugar will only help if there is some where for the anoxic bacteria to grow.. otherwise it may feed unwanted aerobic bacteria
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115444
.
There is a product out there that I used with success. It was called
A Z ........it defenitely works
A Z ........it defenitely works
Monolith Marine Monsters made A Z No3
http://www.simplifiedreefkeeping.com/faq/AZ-NO3.HTM
Yes it works well.
As stated above...Do Not Overdose!!!
For those who still don't understand...
These products will fuel a bacterial population explosion!
The population density will be sooo high that you can see cloudy water from the bacteria with your naked eye! The bacs will grow throughout the tank and will be visible in the water column.
If you have a tank with a large wet/dry and lots of bio-balls you have a nitrate factory!
The wet/dry is unsurpassed with it's filtering capabilities as it handles huge bio-loads and it helps keep oxygen levels very high. However the downside is that it produces a ton of nitrates! This technique can be employed to keep nitrates low in between water changes.
If your tank is usually at 80ppm or higher in nitrates, than a dosing program would benefit you also.
You can do more water changes and bigger ones at that too, or you can employ this technique between your water changes. As I said before I use it and so do my friends, but we know our limits and how to use the products. Just be careful and do a big water change if you have any problems!
http://www.simplifiedreefkeeping.com/faq/AZ-NO3.HTM
Yes it works well.
As stated above...Do Not Overdose!!!
For those who still don't understand...
These products will fuel a bacterial population explosion!
The population density will be sooo high that you can see cloudy water from the bacteria with your naked eye! The bacs will grow throughout the tank and will be visible in the water column.
If you have a tank with a large wet/dry and lots of bio-balls you have a nitrate factory!
The wet/dry is unsurpassed with it's filtering capabilities as it handles huge bio-loads and it helps keep oxygen levels very high. However the downside is that it produces a ton of nitrates! This technique can be employed to keep nitrates low in between water changes.
If your tank is usually at 80ppm or higher in nitrates, than a dosing program would benefit you also.
You can do more water changes and bigger ones at that too, or you can employ this technique between your water changes. As I said before I use it and so do my friends, but we know our limits and how to use the products. Just be careful and do a big water change if you have any problems!
Good post Mr Firemouth!
I think the most important point is that the nitrates arent the only pollutant in your tank,its just the one thats easily testable.So remove the nitrates and youve removed your only measurable indicator of how bad your water is.
I think the most important point is that the nitrates arent the only pollutant in your tank,its just the one thats easily testable.So remove the nitrates and youve removed your only measurable indicator of how bad your water is.
