Cacellian worm Breeding

[Industrial]

If you want to sell fish I wouldn't think that you would need a license. Many people sell offspring and old fish to the LFS I work at daily and I could never imagine them getting in any trouble for not having a license. If you wanted to start a business though you would need a license.

what??? where did you come up with this?

if you are in possession of an animal deemed illegal, it is up to you to prove your innocence.

Ah, I could have swore in the U.S. you are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

As far as I know, it isn't illegal to own T. Natans in the United States. It isn't up to you to prove which country your LFS' wholesalers got it from. I really doubt that it is illegal to export in all three countries that it is found in as well. There is zero chance that you will be found guilty in a court of law for owning an illegal species when the species is not banned in the United States and can be found in many countries where it is not illegal to export.

 

[Etunes]

Back to the purpose of the thread.

Yes breeding is pretty simple. Provide lots of meaty foods, I used a lot of blackworms, beefheart, and plankton. Keep water temps around 80-81dF. I kept one male to two females, and had great success. These are about as hard to breed as convict cichlids.

Well then why are they not available more? This is why i want to do it though. Thanks a ton, now i got to see if i can find more. :/

 

[ScatMan]

When breeding this species, I talked to USFWS personally. I got what I needed from them.

good for you, but some people feel better when they have tangible proof in their hands.

You have told us what others have told you, but have not even taken the time to call USFWS yourself.

aren't you telling us what others have told you as well? no i haven't called usfw. i don't need to, i don't keep them, and wouldn't be satisfied with a promise over the phone if i did.

No matter what anyone tells you, you aren't going to change your mind, so no point arguing with a wall. Have a great day.

yes, thank you, you have a great day as well.

and there are still a few questions you have strangely passed over;

when and where were they legal to export? no guessing!

wouldn't something in writing be a good idea, and better than a promise over the phone, regardless of legality?

 

[ScatMan]

Ah, I could have swore in the U.S. you are innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.

correct, you would be guilty of possessing an illegal animal if deemed illegal by the authorities on the basis that they were never legally imported, now it's your turn to prove otherwise. get it?

As far as I know, it isn't illegal to own T. Natans in the United States.

another guess to the legality of t. natans.

It isn't up to you to prove which country your LFS' wholesalers got it from.

it is if your in court defending yourself, because in all likelihood the pet you bought was illegally imported and sold to your lfs. do you know of any large wholesale breeding operations, and if so, if they got their stock legally?

I really doubt that it is illegal to export in all three countries that it is found in as well.

another guess, which one allows for legal exportation?

There is zero chance that you will be found guilty in a court of law for owning an illegal species when the species is not banned in the United States

but if it is banned (which no one has proven otherwise) than you have more than a zero chance of being convicted of a crime.

and can be found in many countries where it is not illegal to export.

you really doubted that they were illegal just a sentence ago, what makes you so sure now? please, tell me what these many countries are and how you know this? don't tell me you're guessing again.

if you think it's legal or not, the prudent thing to do would be to get something in writing from usfw to cover your butt.

 

[Industrial]

correct, you would be guilty of possessing an illegal animal if deemed illegal by the authorities on the basis that they were never legally imported, now it's your turn to prove otherwise. get it?

another guess to the legality of t. natans.

it is if your in court defending yourself, because in all likelihood the pet you bought was illegally imported and sold to your lfs. do you know of any large wholesale breeding operations, and if so, if they got their stock legally?

another guess, which one allows for legal exportation?

but if it is banned (which no one has proven otherwise) than you have more than a zero chance of being convicted of a crime.

you really doubted that they were illegal just a sentence ago, what makes you so sure now? please, tell me what these many countries are and how you know this? don't tell me you're guessing again.

if you think it's legal or not, the prudent thing to do would be to get something in writing from usfw to cover your butt.

According to a zoo's website (didn't see any more reliable results) Colombia banned export of these species. I have not seen bans in Trinidad and Tobago or Venezuela. Fish are not "cleared" for export, they are just not banned species. You can say that these other two countries have not allowed export of these but the more correct term is that they have not banned sale of these species.

You can also not do the time if you do not know who your LFS wholesaler was. It is not a customers responsibility to know where the LFS got their fish from and it is also not a customer's responsibility to know foreign law. If it is not your responsibility it is not your fault.

 

[ScatMan]

According to a zoo's website (didn't see any more reliable results) Colombia banned export of these species. I have not seen bans in Trinidad and Tobago or Venezuela. Fish are not "cleared" for export, they are just not banned species. You can say that these other two countries have not allowed export of these but the more correct term is that they have not banned sale of these species.

as it was relayed to me by someone who deals directly with an importer; all animals are banned for export except fish, iguanas and boa constrictors. so as far as i know it is illegal to export them and i have no reason to believe otherwise unless someone can show me evidence to the contrary or has at the very least spoken to the foreign authorities.

You can also not do the time if you do not know who your LFS wholesaler was. It is not a customers responsibility to know where the LFS got their fish from and it is also not a customer's responsibility to know foreign law. If it is not your responsibility it is not your fault.

so, if i bought a stolen stereo, wouldn't i get in trouble for receiving stolen property? yes i would. i know that's not the exact same scenario but it illustrates the legal principal. ignorance of the law is no excuse.

im tired of going off on these legal tangents, i'm not a legal scholar and neither are you. so if you'd like to continue this debate, i'm sure there is a better place for it.

bottom line is:
unless you can prove with legal documents that these animals were legally exported (in other words; show me the laws), the next best thing to do is get permission from usfw in writing to keep these animals. end of story.

now i'm not saying that they are certainly illegal, because i have yet to see the foreign laws, but based on what i have read and heard and seen (confiscations), i have to assume that they are illegal, to be on the safe side.

overcautious? that's a matter of personal opinion.

 

[WyldFya]

Scatman, I have already told you to stop. More derailments in this thread will result in infractions. You won't believe anyone, but you won't do the work yourself. I know for a fact they are legal, and that is all that matters. If you don't believe me great for you, go on with your life, as you haven't provided any help in this thread, stop posting, or post something relevant. End of discussion.

For everyone else, disregard all of scatmans posts, as they are not correct (in regards to the fish, or legal standings).

 

[ScatMan]

Scatman, I have already told you to stop. More derailments in this thread will result in infractions.

real classy, abusing your moderator powers in an attempt to get the last word and silence someone for recommending to people to err on the side of caution. I'M NOT CLAIMING THEM TO BE ILLEGAL, I'M SIMPLY ASKING FOR TANGIBLE PROOF THAT THEY ARE NOT IF YOU ARE GOING TO CLAIM THAT THEY ARE LEGAL. the op had questions as to the legality of t. natans (a complicated subject) and i obliged by sharing what i know.

if you just wanted to warn me, you could have pm'd me instead of committing the same infraction that you are warning me of, or perhaps rules don't apply to moderators? i hope you know that is completely hypocritical and dishonest.

You won't believe anyone, but you won't do the work yourself. I know for a fact they are legal, and that is all that matters.

that may be all that matters to you, but you're not the only person reading these threads.

i fired an e-mail to a professional who has published articles and has done extensive work with caecilians and is very familiar with the US laws as well as the laws in all of the countries in t. natans range. he was gracious enough to take the time to write me back with an extremely informative letter. i was told that he would rather speak for himself and preferred for me not to quote him, so i will respect his request and hope that he posts something here (as i sent him the link to this thread). this person went completely out of their way to answer a question for me and i am eternally grateful for it.

If you don't believe me great for you, go on with your life, as you haven't provided any help in this thread, stop posting, or post something relevant. End of discussion.

i hope that was relevant enough, if not; i kept my caecilian in a 20g aquarium with 3" of sand as substrate and wood furniture that it liked to hide under, temp was @ 80deg. i fed it earthworms, mealworms, trout pellets and pieces of cooked chicken. it spent a lot of time buried in the sand and would scratch itself on the wood to remove shed skin. i bought it in 2000 and it died in 2005, it was purchased as an adult and i have no clue how old it was. my water is hard and the ph is about 7.6. i frequently found it in the filter so i would recommend a tight lid.

For everyone else, disregard all of scatmans posts, as they are not correct (in regards to the fish, or legal standings).

thanks again for dodging the questions you can't answer, not backing your claims up with tangible evidence and being completely hostile to my suggestions.

you can go ahead and remove this post now because you don't like when people challenge your claims.

 

[ScatMan]

this is what i was trying to find, info from someone who could prove they knew what they were talking about. if you can track these puppies down, you'll be in good shape! sorry i have to protect the source but policy prevents him from talking about it publicly.

"there were shipments of aquatic caecilians out of Peru in the late 70s and early 80s that happened before Peru closed their aquatic amphibians loophole. So those animals that were shipped out of Peru in that window, and listed as "aquatic caecilians" on the manifest, are legal and clear."

 

[Etunes]

Alright, thank guys. I just need to track down more. Any other info will be great.