Cacellian worm Breeding

[WyldFya]

there is more than just cites that makes an animal illegal, there are a lot of laws (too many in my opinion) to follow. they were never legal to export, no permits were ever issued by their home countries as i understand it.



that's not why, i can breed panda's or snakehead if i had them, it doesn't make them legal just because they were captive bred here.



the lacey act was written in 1900 and amended to include reptiles and amphibians in 1969.

was anybody importing and breeding these in the 60's???

either way, they were never legally collected in their home country, therefore they're illegal to possess in the US, according to the lacey act.

So long as the country had not banned the export of the animal in question, then they could be brought to the US. The Lacey act only covers if it is illegal to take said species from the wild at the time of collection. As many countries in the T. natans range were not regulating this, they are legal to own. Now if you got one since these countries banned their export, they would be illegal. The problem for the government is proving that the T. natans in your tank comes from lines that were illegally imported, rather than legally. Panda's if bred in the US could be owned, other than the exotic pet laws. Snakeheads even if bred are illegal for a different reason... they are invasive in the US, so no matter what you do, they are not allowed.

 

[Etunes]

the laws are vague (i think on purpose) and often times the clerk you talk to isn't very familiar with the subject (that's bureaucracy for ya'). apparently it's legal IF you can prove that your stock came from confiscated stock (or offspring of) that was sold to you by the original owner who would have to give you a copy of their permit and bill of sale.

example: if i bought babies from the philly zoo (who actually did get theirs from a confiscation), they would give me a copy of their permit and a bill of sale.

if you want to keep what you have, i suggest you get something in writing from f&w to protect yourself down the road. things get serious when you ask for it in writing!

posting scans of what you get from them would be helpful to other keepers as well.

below is almost an exact duplicate of the conversation we are about to have, so this could save everyone some time. the key point i'm trying to make is that you will hear conflicting information, even from within the government (see the peoples experiences in the link). so, know the laws and interpret them at your own risk. the law, as it is written, suggests to me that they are illegal to own. however... it is very unlikely that any individual will ever be prosecuted for keeping them. but the possibility is there for those who f&w deem criminals. in other words; i'd keep a low profile and get your paperwork in order.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f53-other-amphibians/f55-gymnophiona-caecilians/38284-t-natans.html <-this is not the same one i posted before

So how would 1 get the right paper work when you without going in there saying, HERE I HAVE 1? I want to cover all my bases. BTW i have no papaerwork from that day, should have kept the reciept but it is too late for that.

 

[ScatMan]

So long as the country had not banned the export of the animal in question, then they could be brought to the US. The Lacey act only covers if it is illegal to take said species from the wild at the time of collection.

i agree with this 100%

As many countries in the T. natans range were not regulating this, they are legal to own.

i'm curious as to how you found this information because this is the root of the legal dilemma. (where and when was t. natans legally collected?)

there are only two, possibly three countries in t. natans range. they are columbia, venezuela and possibly the republic of trinidad and tobago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhlonectes_natans). as far as i know from 1 reptile dealer in RI that i spoke with and word of mouth accounts on other forums, none of these countries have ever allowed the collection or exportation of t. natans. not simply that they weren't regulating them, they where always illegal to be collected and exported as i understand it.

i'll be the first to admit that this is far from solid proof but unfortunately i don't know where to find the laws for these countries and i wouldn't be able to translate them either.

Now if you got one since these countries banned their export, they would be illegal. The problem for the government is proving that the T. natans in your tank comes from lines that were illegally imported, rather than legally.

if the government determines that no t. natans were ever legally imported, it's then on you to prove how you got these animals legally. so good luck with that!

Panda's if bred in the US could be owned, other than the exotic pet laws. Snakeheads even if bred are illegal for a different reason... they are invasive in the US, so no matter what you do, they are not allowed.

i don't care to discuss the legality of pandas or snakehead, especially here because it's getting off topic. i was simply using them in an example to illustrate that the statement you made "they are bred in captivity in the US. That is why they are not illegal to own" was false when applied to this situation.

 

[ScatMan]

So how would 1 get the right paper work when you without going in there saying, HERE I HAVE 1? I want to cover all my bases. BTW i have no papaerwork from that day, should have kept the reciept but it is too late for that.

i think your best bet is to get something in writing from usf&w (if you can) stating that t. natans are legal to possess, and you keep that document and give a copy of it to each person you sell one to with a bill of sale. and post that document here .

 

[WyldFya]

i agree with this 100%



i'm curious as to how you found this information because this is the root of the legal dilemma. (where and when was t. natans legally collected?)

there are only two, possibly three countries in t. natans range. they are columbia, venezuela and possibly the republic of trinidad and tobago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhlonectes_natans). as far as i know from 1 reptile dealer in RI that i spoke with and word of mouth accounts on other forums, none of these countries have ever allowed the collection or exportation of t. natans. not simply that they weren't regulating them, they where always illegal to be collected and exported as i understand it.

i'll be the first to admit that this is far from solid proof but unfortunately i don't know where to find the laws for these countries and i wouldn't be able to translate them either.



if the government determines that no t. natans were ever legally imported, it's then on you to prove how you got these animals legally. so good luck with that!

If you acquired them from a petstore, then it is the pet store that needs to move it up the chain. If their supplier got them illegally, then yes, you are in possession of an illegal animal.

i don't care to discuss the legality of pandas or snakehead, especially here because it's getting off topic. i was simply using them in an example to illustrate that the statement you made "they are bred in captivity in the US. That is why they are not illegal to own" was false when applied to this situation.

It is not false at all. If you acquire a captive bred animal bred in the US, that was legally obtained, it is legal to own. However, there are other laws that make owning certain species, like the two you mentioned, illegal. You are comparing apples to bananas.

 

[ScatMan]

It is not false at all. If you acquire a captive bred animal bred in the US, that was legally obtained, it is legal to own.

key word here being "legally", which was not in you original post i quoted and is still the topic of debate. i don't think anyone would argue the clarified statement above.

However, there are other laws that make owning certain species, like the two you mentioned, illegal. You are comparing apples to bananas.

no i wasn't. again, i was simply using them in an example to illustrate that the statement you made "they are bred in captivity in the US. That is why they are not illegal to own" was false when applied to this situation. (implying that the parent stock was illegally collected)

the fact that there are other laws that can make an animal illegal regardless of if it was captive bred in the US, was my point.

 

[Industrial]

In order to get in any trouble

An officer needs to be in your house for another reason and recognize the aquarium and notice that one of the fish in the tank is illegal.

Then the officer needs to find out where you got it.

Then the officer needs to contact the LFS and ask them where they got it.

Then the wholesaler needs to be asked what country their wholesaler is located in.

Then if the country is one where you cannot export it you will have to give up the fish.

I honestly think that this kind of effort to confiscate a fish is very very rare.

 

[WyldFya]

In the case of T. natans, there are no laws making the possesion of them illegal so long as the original stock was legally acquired. I assumed that members would understand that illegally obtained species are still illegal. To put it to rest, Typhlonectes natans purchased from a pet store/ LFS is legal to own, as retail stores are regularly monitored by government agencies.

 

[WyldFya]

key word here being "legally", which was not in you original post i quoted and is still the topic of debate. i don't think anyone would argue the clarified statement above.



no i wasn't. again, i was simply using them in an example to illustrate that the statement you made "they are bred in captivity in the US. That is why they are not illegal to own" was false when applied to this situation. (implying that the parent stock was illegally collected)

the fact that there are other laws that can make an animal illegal regardless of if it was captive bred in the US, was my point.

Again, apples to bananas. The only leg you are trying to stand on, is that they are illegal, BECAUSE you assume the original stock was illegally acquired. However, a snakehead could have been legally acquired pre ban, and bred, the offspring would be illegal to own as they are invasive. T. natans has no such law banning the right to own off spring.

 

[Etunes]

Well then tommorrow i will try to get a written staetment from the fws that they are not illegal, but if i cant i cant. I also am gonna keep any receits when purchasing a nimal. Thanks guys.

Can you guys clarify something else for me so i dont have to make a new forum. I mentioned above about selling the offspring and needing a license. So every hobiest here has a license to sell there animals? And what license do i need?

Ok, well i did then next best thing from this she think he thinks thing and called fish and wildlife services. I got in contact with them and they said it was not illegal to own. NOW, they did say that you need a license to sell them of class 3. So all these people that sell fish and frogs and stuff online in classifieds sections are suppose to have a class 3 license to sell these animals? Sounds stupid if it is not any sort of business, Just a hobby to try to breed them just as if i breed guppies and sold the babies. So do i really need a license, the lady didnt seem she knew what she was talking about when it came to the licensing. lol, dont even know if i will be able to breed them or if i will bbreed more then 1 or 2 batches.

Is this the license the person was talking about and do i need it?
http://myfwc.com/license/FreshwaterP...ish_dealer.htm