Chinese Cave Gecko x Leopard Gecko

  • We are currently upgrading MFK. thanks! -neo
Noto;3259068; said:
First, a caveat. This post is just me presenting my thoughts on the issue. It is not intended to be unpleasant in any way. So:

You're talking two about two different issues. I think everyone here is pro captive breeding. Captive hybridizing, however, does nothing to protect wild stocks.

Most tank-raised fish are not hybrids. Besides the cichlid hybrids like flowerhorns and blood parrots as well as several of the common livebearers, tank-raised fish are almost always pure species. I don't know much about coral propagation, but I don't think hybridization is common there either.

I don't think that creating hybrids is wrong, but it certainly has some cons. Of course in this case there is the issue of providing suitable conditions for the two parent species (and then trying to figure out the needs of any offspring). There is also the issue of offspring health; while hybridization of closely related species often results in very fit offspring, hybridization of more distantly related species often results in sickly offspring or animals with severe deformities. There is a large literature on this phenomenon from the mid 20th century, when hybridization experiments were often used to determine relatedness of organisms. A third issue is what happens once you start sharing your little hybrids and someone decides to backcross them to the parents. You may end up with a situation in which it is impossible to determine an animal's true genetic identity. This can cause problems if you see captive animals as a 'genetic ark' to be used if the genetic diversity of wild stocks drops too low.

Hybridization has its uses, but I don't think random experiments like this are one of them. Why not just breed your cave geckos and get some more little cave geckos? They're perfectly good lizards already.

All of this is probably moot unless your geckos actually produce offspring. You have several barriers here:

Will they recognize one another as potential partners? Most animals are pretty good at recognizing their own species. Hybrids in nature are much more common among species with external fertilization (most fish and frogs, etc.) than those with internal fertilization, such as lizards; this is because many natural hybrids are simply the result of the eggs and sperm of several species being present in the same place at the same time.

Will they both be "in the mood" at the same time? The differing captive requirements of the two species come into play here. Miserable animals are less likely to mate than comfortable animals.

Are they physically able to mate? Squamate genitals are pretty complicated; your two species may not be able to copulate no matter how much they want to.

Can the male's sperm reach and enter the egg? A sperm has to have the right "key" to enter the egg. The "keys" of different species may be different.

Can fertilization occur? Another biochemical issue. It may be physically imposssible for the egg and sperm of these two species to undergo the fertilization process.

Can a viable embryo be formed? Sometimes hybridization attempts produce fertilized eggs, but a genetic incompatibility during development leads to embryonic death.

And so on and on. The more closely related two species are, the more likly the answers to all those questions will be "Yes". But you're trying to cross two species from different genera, not even sister genera. I think there will be a lot of "No"s on the list.

Well Said

I probably didn't word my previous comments correctly. I don't think Hybrids will keep wild fish from being extinct. I do believe they will allow for new species to be produced within captivity, thus lowering the need for wild fish. I think there will always be a demand for wild caught animals.
 
Noto;3259068; said:
First, a caveat. This post is just me presenting my thoughts on the issue. It is not intended to be unpleasant in any way. So:

You're talking two about two different issues. I think everyone here is pro captive breeding. Captive hybridizing, however, does nothing to protect wild stocks.

Most tank-raised fish are not hybrids. Besides the cichlid hybrids like flowerhorns and blood parrots as well as several of the common livebearers, tank-raised fish are almost always pure species. I don't know much about coral propagation, but I don't think hybridization is common there either.

I don't think that creating hybrids is wrong, but it certainly has some cons. Of course in this case there is the issue of providing suitable conditions for the two parent species (and then trying to figure out the needs of any offspring). There is also the issue of offspring health; while hybridization of closely related species often results in very fit offspring, hybridization of more distantly related species often results in sickly offspring or animals with severe deformities. There is a large literature on this phenomenon from the mid 20th century, when hybridization experiments were often used to determine relatedness of organisms. A third issue is what happens once you start sharing your little hybrids and someone decides to backcross them to the parents. You may end up with a situation in which it is impossible to determine an animal's true genetic identity. This can cause problems if you see captive animals as a 'genetic ark' to be used if the genetic diversity of wild stocks drops too low.

Hybridization has its uses, but I don't think random experiments like this are one of them. Why not just breed your cave geckos and get some more little cave geckos? They're perfectly good lizards already.

All of this is probably moot unless your geckos actually produce offspring. You have several barriers here:

Will they recognize one another as potential partners? Most animals are pretty good at recognizing their own species. Hybrids in nature are much more common among species with external fertilization (most fish and frogs, etc.) than those with internal fertilization, such as lizards; this is because many natural hybrids are simply the result of the eggs and sperm of several species being present in the same place at the same time.

Will they both be "in the mood" at the same time? The differing captive requirements of the two species come into play here. Miserable animals are less likely to mate than comfortable animals.

Are they physically able to mate? Squamate genitals are pretty complicated; your two species may not be able to copulate no matter how much they want to.

Can the male's sperm reach and enter the egg? A sperm has to have the right "key" to enter the egg. The "keys" of different species may be different.

Can fertilization occur? Another biochemical issue. It may be physically imposssible for the egg and sperm of these two species to undergo the fertilization process.

Can a viable embryo be formed? Sometimes hybridization attempts produce fertilized eggs, but a genetic incompatibility during development leads to embryonic death.

And so on and on. The more closely related two species are, the more likly the answers to all those questions will be "Yes". But you're trying to cross two species from different genera, not even sister genera. I think there will be a lot of "No"s on the list.
Here ya go, 100% agreed
 
N-E Cichlids;3259113; said:
Well Said

I probably didn't word my previous comments correctly. I don't think Hybrids will keep wild fish from being extinct. I do believe they will allow for new species to be produced within captivity, thus lowering the need for wild fish. I think there will always be a demand for wild caught animals.
Most times a new hibrid doesant even mean a new species, only some odd looking animals that will live for a copple of generacions before going sterile ofspring and disapearing. Making hibrids its a waste of energy and our time that could be employed in saving wild species, most asian turtles are being eaten out of existence and many madagascar species will likely become at the very least unavaible in the near future. Wanna a hibrid? Get one already maid, there are plenty like redxblack and white or redxblue tegus. Actualy most completly domesticaded lizards such as leopard geckos and bearded dragons are by themselfes hibrids;) Now adays leos originate from a large variety of both wild subspecies and species wich are so closely lookalikes former hobbists didnt realized that they were cross breding. When I wach wild forms of leos there are some that closely look like a snow, others that look like a high yellow,etc. Bearded dragons same thing, aparently the german giant was originated from a cross beetween viticeps and barbata, and now thouse genes are being injected into many bloodlines to make larger forms of many morphs, and so they are to a lesser degree hybrids too
 
I don't think Hybrids will keep wild fish from being extinct. I do believe they will allow for new species to be produced within captivity, thus lowering the need for wild fish. I think there will always be a demand for wild caught animals.
Isn't a definition of a species "a group of similar organisms which can reproduce together to produce fertile offspring"? And cross-breeding separate species produces infertile offspring?

It might be a slight confusion on my part, but surely that means breeding these species together will produce infertile baby geckos, which are not a new species, and will be of no use to breed for captivity?

Paul
 
I think you should just focus on breeding Chinese Cave Geckos since they're not seen very often in the hobby. I'd love to get a trio CCG's and start breeding them.
 
paul112;3260686; said:
Isn't a definition of a species "a group of similar organisms which can reproduce together to produce fertile offspring"? And cross-breeding separate species produces infertile offspring?

It might be a slight confusion on my part, but surely that means breeding these species together will produce infertile baby geckos, which are not a new species, and will be of no use to breed for captivity?

Paul

Not all hybrids are infertile. But a hybrid swarm, especially one produced in captivity, is not usually considered a new species. And they certainly won't help reduce the demand on wild cave geckos.
 
Not all hybrids are infertile.
I just sat my A-level exams in Biology, where we were taught that a species is defined as 'a group of similar organisms that can reproduce and produce fertile offspring'. We were taught that different species can only breed together and at best produce infertile offsping.

I'm hoping to go into Zoology in September, so would someone mind elaborating on how such fertile hybrids can occur? Often really complex things are missed out of A-Level, or common trends are taught as fact.

Thanks,
Paul
 
paul112;3260864; said:
I just sat my A-level exams in Biology, where we were taught that a species is defined as 'a group of similar organisms that can reproduce and produce fertile offspring'. We were taught that different species can only breed together and at best produce infertile offsping.

I'm hoping to go into Zoology in September, so would someone mind elaborating on how such fertile hybrids can occur? Often really complex things are missed out of A-Level, or common trends are taught as fact.

Thanks,
Paul

You are being taught a sort of bastardized version of the biological species concept. This was the dominant species concept through most of the 20th century but is now no longer as prevalent. I'll talk about some of the other species concepts in a bit, but first I'll explain why I say "bastardized".

Biological species are separated in nature. If you have two related but distinct populations of organisms which live in the same area and maintain their separate identities, they are two distinct species. This does not mean that the two are incapable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring- often the species are quite interfertile but are separated by behavioral or temporal barriers. These two species may interbreed freely in captivity, where many of the barriers are broken down. They may even interbreed occasionally in nature, just not so frequently that the two species merge into one.

I'll use toads as an example. Here in my area there are two closely related toad species- Fowler's toad and the American toad. American toads breed early and have a long, musical trill. Fowler's toads breed later and have a short, nasal trill. However, their breeing seasons do overlap by a couple of weeks (incomplete temporal separation). Female American toads will seek out calling male American toads, not Fowler's toads, and vice versa. However, male toads will attempt to amplex anything vaguely toad-shaped that wanders into their field of view, so interspecific couplings are common (incomplete behavioral separation). Sometimes the female toad convinces the male that he has the wrong gal, but other times the two spawn and produce perfectly fertile hybrid offspring. These hybrids, while fit and healthy, are at a reproductive disadvantage because neither American nor Fowler's toads recognize them as suitable mates due to their mixed-up call and possibly smell (again, incomplete behavioral separation). So, the barriers separating these two populations are leaky, but still strong enough that they maintain their distinct identities throughout their large mutual range, and so qualify as distinct species.

The increasing use of multivariate statistics, biochemical information, phylogenetic classifications, and the difficulty of applying the biological species concept in many cases has led to the development of several new species concepts. The evolutionary species concepts identifies lineages with unique evolutionary trajectories. The genetic species concept identifies lineages by degree of genetic distinctiveness. The phylogenetic species concept is similar to the evolutionary species concept, but recognizes only 'splitting' of old species into two new species. None of these concepts is perfect, but they are used as models to constrain hypotheses of relationships among lineages.
 
You are being taught a sort of bastardized version of the biological species concept. This was the dominant species concept through most of the 20th century but is now no longer as prevalent. I'll talk about some of the other species concepts in a bit, but first I'll explain why I say "bastardized".

Biological species are separated in nature. If you have two related but distinct populations of organisms which live in the same area and maintain their separate identities, they are two distinct species. This does not mean that the two are incapable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring- often the species are quite interfertile but are separated by behavioral or temporal barriers. These two species may interbreed freely in captivity, where many of the barriers are broken down. They may even interbreed occasionally in nature, just not so frequently that the two species merge into one.

I'll use toads as an example. Here in my area there are two closely related toad species- Fowler's toad and the American toad. American toads breed early and have a long, musical trill. Fowler's toads breed later and have a short, nasal trill. However, their breeing seasons do overlap by a couple of weeks (incomplete temporal separation). Female American toads will seek out calling male American toads, not Fowler's toads, and vice versa. However, male toads will attempt to amplex anything vaguely toad-shaped that wanders into their field of view, so interspecific couplings are common (incomplete behavioral separation). Sometimes the female toad convinces the male that he has the wrong gal, but other times the two spawn and produce perfectly fertile hybrid offspring. These hybrids, while fit and healthy, are at a reproductive disadvantage because neither American nor Fowler's toads recognize them as suitable mates due to their mixed-up call and possibly smell (again, incomplete behavioral separation). So, the barriers separating these two populations are leaky, but still strong enough that they maintain their distinct identities throughout their large mutual range, and so qualify as distinct species.

The increasing use of multivariate statistics, biochemical information, phylogenetic classifications, and the difficulty of applying the biological species concept in many cases has led to the development of several new species concepts. The evolutionary species concepts identifies lineages with unique evolutionary trajectories. The genetic species concept identifies lineages by degree of genetic distinctiveness. The phylogenetic species concept is similar to the evolutionary species concept, but recognizes only 'splitting' of old species into two new species. None of these concepts is perfect, but they are used as models to constrain hypotheses of relationships among lineages.

Nice one, thanks for the indepth explanation :)

Paul
 
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