Cichlid compatabilty

[duanes]

I agree, there are always exceptions, and Thorichthys is obviously one, that genus seems to be able to live side by side, but it does seem to be the exception, whereas others such as Parachromis do not. Even where 2 species may inhabit the same geographical area, habitat preference differs. P dovii is more often than not, found in clear water habitats, and P managuese in more turbid areas.
Here in Panama (a kind of evolutionary bridge) the cichlid communities are fairly diverse, but the further north you go (except for the above mentioned Thorichthys) the less cichlid diverse it gets.
If we look geographically at many of the Central American species, separation is the rule more than the exception. And trying to buck that tendency, often leads to community carnage.

 

[peathenster]

Although some species can be more aggressive than others, the relationship between large and territorial species (even piscivores) is usually not predation. It's more likely to be competition. Since species in the same genus tend to be similar in morphorlogy and behavior, they are much likely to be competitors for food and territory.

Years ago I used to do "community tanks", with often more than half a dozen species per tank, and success was measured by fish 1) not killing each other, 2) being healthy and active with good growth rate and 3) occasional spawning. I think this is what people usually have in mind when they ask lfs people "would this fish work with mine".

With the number of my tanks increasing and the number of species I'm interested in decreasing, I've been doing species tanks in the past few years. There's 1 predominant species per tank, with a few other things serving various functions. It became more interesting and relevant to think about how to minimize competition in the tank.

I think these are probably the typical "philosophies" in setting up tanks. I would not argue for one over the other. The important point, however, is to ask oneself two questions: 1) what exactly do I want to achieve with this tank and 2) how do I make that happen.

Back to Duanes' original point, I believe it is unnatural to do that, but if one really wants to, there are "strategies" that would make it more likely to succeed. Once again - one can't have the cake and eat it too. If you want to (and can) keep a bunch of aggressive fish in a bare bottom tank to satisfy your visual needs, so be it, but don't argue that it's the way fish keeping "should" be done.

 

[neutrino]

I respect the original point, and species within a single genus is one thing, but whether a cichlid species lives with other cichlids depends very much on habitat, really, and adaptations to that habitat. What's true in a Central American cenote isn't the rule on a rocky Malawi reef crowded with mbuna, or in a SA river or flooded forest.

Certainly, there are a good number of cichlid species that are found together in the wild which tend to be compatible in an appropriate tank, or cichlid species not found together in the wild that, because of compatible temperament and tank requirements, are also compatible in a tank.

The counterpoint to it being more natural with some species to keep them alone or in a species tank is that in other cases it would be much more true to nature to create a mix of species found together in the wild than to keep a single species tank. In some cases, we might keep a single species for our convenience in caring for them or due to the logistics of tank size, but it's hardly true to their natural circumstance.

Take discus, for example:
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2927

What fish live with Discus?
...The genera and species which live with them most frequently are Pterophyllum scalare and P. leopoldi, Geophagus spp. (pictured above) and Acarichthys heckelii, Satanoperca spp. and Biotodoma spp.

Heros spp was in almost every netting, then Hypselecara spp. and with Heckel Discus there were mostly Hoplarchus psittacus and Uaru amphiacanthoides. Mesonauta spp. was found almost all the time above the Discus, then followed Chaetobranchus and Chaetobranchopsis spp.

Of the peaceful visitors — groups or individuals which sometimes moved with the Discus group — most often seen was Crenicichla spp. These were usually the larger ones which come in small groups, like C. marmorata, C. albopunctata, C. geayi, C. johanna, reticulata and C. saxatilis.

 

[duanes]

Habitat is a very significant contributor, and my point has more to do with how unique Central Anerican cichlids are (and the way we keep them), compared to the rift lake cichlids of Africa, and even how the riverine species live, compared to the new world Amphilophine lake cichlids of Nicaragua. One might consider how aggressive many of the African "riverine species can be, (buttikoferi immediately pops into my mind)
Maybe its the scarcity of resources (food, proper breeding sites etc) in northern Central American and Mexican riverine environments, compared to lakes that force our more new world northern cichlids to be jealous, and intolerant. In the cenotes space is very limited compared to the giant rift lakes, and may require the strong attitude for survival.
And when you compare South American riverine sytems like the Amazon and others there, to more northern systems, the nutrient and space availability levels are significantly different, allowing for species diversity and a coexistence that our northern species may not tolerate.

 

[neutrino]

Habitat is a very significant contributor

An interesting model for that is pupfish, where the same or closely related species vary their behavior and aggression according to habitat, including temperature and the water chemistry of one nearby location versus another, because of how this affects hormone production. (an article for reference) Theoretically, then, at least in some cichlid species, you could be seeing different behavior in one tank vs. another based on not only the physical properties of the tank (size, decor, etc.), but also chemical properties of your water.

Maybe, along with individual temperament (a big one imo), this is an overlooked part of the equation of why a combination that works in one tank doesn't in another.

 

[Pomatomus]

An interesting model for that is pupfish, where the same or closely related species vary their behavior and aggression according to habitat, including temperature and the water chemistry of one nearby location versus another, because of how this affects hormone production. (an article for reference) Theoretically, then, at least in some cichlid species, you could be seeing different behavior in one tank vs. another based on not only the physical properties of the tank (size, decor, etc.), but also chemical properties of your water.

Maybe, along with individual temperament (a big one imo), this is an overlooked part of the equation of why a combination that works in one tank doesn't in another.

Good point. Nitrate in particular is known to function as an endocrine disruptor if the levels are high enough. These factors can also come together in a positive way to cue aggression when spawning conditions are ideal.

 

[BC in SK]

Maybe its the scarcity of resources (food, proper breeding sites etc) in northern Central American and Mexican riverine environments, compared to lakes that force our more new world northern cichlids to be jealous, and intolerant. In the cenotes space is very limited compared to the giant rift lakes, and may require the strong attitude for survival.

Not too sure the connection your trying to make, holds true at all. You can cherry pick certain bodies of water in CA that have few cichlid species......but just as many, if not more have a large number of cichlid species. Some of the lakes in CA, (lake Nicaragua and lake Manaugua being just 2 amongst many) have many cichlid species. Just one example, lake Nicaragua and Manaugua have dovii, jag, midas, RD, nics, convicts, neets, plus a few others. None of these fish are any less aggressive or territorial then their northern counterparts.
No doubt, CA can be very, very competitive with each other and I think many times they can make for some of the worst tank mates you could ever keep together in a glass box. I think sometimes, people need to think "outside of the box" and consider alternative tank mates. But whether or not the CA cichlid comes from an environment with a large number of cichlid species or very few, doesn't seem to have much bearing on how aggressive and territorial the species is.

 

[neutrino]

Some of the lakes in CA, (lake Nicaragua and lake Manaugua being just 2 amongst many) have many cichlid species. Just one example, lake Nicaragua and Manaugua have dovii, jag, midas, RD, nics, convicts, neets, plus a few others.

I see the point you're making, but here's my question about it, since my cichlid knowledge is primarily SA and African-- Collection of species in a large lake is one thing, but it doesn't mean they don't keep apart and well separated. So, how often or to what extent are these actually found together or in proximity? Not an argument, just the next logical question that occurs to me.

On the other hand, the same species that are loners and intolerant of others in some circumstances will congregate in others. True of grizzly bears, northern pike, muskie... and it's certainly true that in some bodies of water a scarcity of prey items = widely separated predators with larger territories and that a concentration of prey items can equal a congregating of predators.

None of this changes that I accept Duane's observations of the particular habitat he's been been exploring, just a question of how far observations of the behavior of those species in those habitats can be extended beyond that context.

 

[BC in SK]

Collection of species in a large lake is one thing, but it doesn't mean they don't keep apart and well separated. So, how often or to what extent are these actually found together or in proximity?

They may very well, keep apart. I know what I have read about, and what I have seen of video footage of numerous CA species in close proximity, is usually younger fish.
A cenote is a very small body of water. Sort of surprising there is any fish in it at all, let alone numerous species. Competition for food, space and breeding territory would limit the number of kinds of cichlids.......not to mention just the chance of the fish getting there in the first place, either by a flood or an underground connection. Both uros and JD are very widespread species. Both can be found in bodies of water with numerous cichlid species (lake Izabal and Petan being just 2 examples amongst many). I doubt these fish are any less aggressive and territorial if they originate from bodies of water with many cichlid species , or from bodies of water with very few cichlid species......so I fail to see the connection or I am really not quite understanding the point.
Though IMO, when it comes to some of the more aggressive species of CA, another CA cichlid is often not the wisest choice.

 

[smitty03281964]

Duanes I have also raised these same issues with people. I kept only Managuans in one tank, Only Dovi in another tank. Only Midas in another tank. The only time I broke from that method was when I had 3 Different Viejas. That is why I love seeing the natural biotope to see what other fish are sharing the same space. You are so right nature really does tell us and show us how things are. My lady is from Guatemala. She went back and and her and her dad was out on the river and he came back and told me that he seen Black Belts and he had a list of a couple of other fish with them. You created a great post. Thanks.