Cichlid Line Bred vs. Hybrid

[Toby_H]

When something breeds it passes genes/qualities to its offspring… Its offspring are likely to carry these genes/characteristics recessively, if not expressively…

In the wild, environment dictates which fish survive to breeding age… then the fish themselves choose which survivors to breed with… In this way the “best” characteristics are preserved and passed on. As the environment changes so do the “best” characteristics. This is how evolution happens…

Well the same principals hold true in our aquariums, except we remove most of the threats which means most of those born survive, regardless of characteristics. Then humans choose which fish spawn, or pass on their characteristics… Even if we let the fish choose breeders, they are choosing from an unnaturally large pool. Also in their new environment, they may be looking for new characteristics which appear to do better in this new environment.

What this means is no matter what we do in our aquariums, since the environment is different, evolution will be different… captive breeding is destined to create a slightly different fish than wild breeding… even within a species… even with a species from the same locale…

So “line breeding” is unavoidable… hybridization is avoidable… If we can help it, we should help it… when preservation is our goal…

 

[Aphilophus]

preach on my freind

 

[jwarriner]

When something breeds it passes genes/qualities to its offspring… Its offspring are likely to carry these genes/characteristics recessively, if not expressively…

In the wild, environment dictates which fish survive to breeding age… then the fish themselves choose which survivors to breed with… In this way the “best” characteristics are preserved and passed on. As the environment changes so do the “best” characteristics. This is how evolution happens…

Well the same principals hold true in our aquariums, except we remove most of the threats which means most of those born survive, regardless of characteristics. Then humans choose which fish spawn, or pass on their characteristics… Even if we let the fish choose breeders, they are choosing from an unnaturally large pool. Also in their new environment, they may be looking for new characteristics which appear to do better in this new environment.

What this means is no matter what we do in our aquariums, since the environment is different, evolution will be different… captive breeding is destined to create a slightly different fish than wild breeding… even within a species… even with a species from the same locale…

So “line breeding” is unavoidable… hybridization is avoidable… If we can help it, we should help it… when preservation is our goal…

I totally agree with you. When it comes to breeding fish, which many aquariasts do, there are always human decisions involved and that's not natural. Just don't release them into the wild and we should all be fine.

My problem with hybrids isn't so much that people are doing it, it's that the fish can look entirely like either parent and some unscrupulous people will sell the fry to an LFS as a pure species. When I buy a "convict" I want a convict, not a hybrid that looks more like his pops than his mom.

 

[dogofwar]

"When I buy a "convict" I want a convict, not a hybrid that looks more like his pops than his mom."

But that's exactly it: if you buy a "convict"...and it's from a LFS...99.9% chance is that it's technically a hybrid...of one or more Amatitlania sp.

And even within a given Amatitlania sp. (e.g. siquia), depending on collection location, the fish look and act very differently.

Too many of us act as if the labels that taxonomists place on things adequately describe the life on this planet: in reality its an imprecise man-made system.

More often than not whether something is technically a hybrid (BAD!) or "pure" (OK!) is based on how much work has been done by scientists in classifying a given group of fish and whether those who did the work are "lumpers" or "splitters" by temperment.

 

[jwarriner]

Very true.

 

[Toby_H]

So because the system is imperfect we should abandon it? No... We should work to improve it or work around its imperfections...

The ACA has formed a committee to discuss our stance on Hybrid Cichlids. Putting personal feelings aside I would be curious on your thoughts pertaining to "Line Bred" cichlids compared to Hybrid fish.

But when responding to this question specifically... I note one major difference comparing "Line Bred" fish and Hybrid fish... Line breeding is unavoidable due to the principals of evolution influenced by environment... Hybridization is completely avoidable...

In response to an argument that, "Hybridization is unavoidable due to an imperfect process of labeling fish species"... F0 Fish can and are labeled not only by species name but by collection point... most prominent breeders suggest we breed true to these collection points. This is something we can work through...

But then there are your hobby level breeders who do not know, understand nor care about being this picky... my feelings on this are, if you’re not going to breed responsibly, then don't distribute your offspring... Everyone should have the opportunity to enjoy the experience of breeding their Cichlids... but not every joker that throws two fish together should have the opportunity to profit from doing so... We should get out of it what we put into it...

 

[mbunafishkeeper]

ok put it this way:
line breeding is ok cause its with the same specie of fish meaning same fish different sex but i would out cross every other generation..

hybridizeing isnt ok cause its with 2 different speices of fish. if nature wanted hybrids she would have already done it in the wild...

ppl say humans are hybrids cause we came from apes which infact i now we might have or havent ( i dont believe we did anyways ) but if we did it would have to generations to complete what were are today.

line breeding is not ok! it brings out mutations in fish such as deformitys etc so you think its fine??

also you wanted and tryed to breed your carpinte with your octofasciatus so how can you say you think hybrids are wrong??

ive never heard the theory of humans being hybrids, please explain this, what would a human be a hybrid with??

if you dont beleive if evolution, what do you beleive in?

 

[David R]

Why?

Who determines what traits are preferrable? Are you assuming a bigger fish is a better fish?

Better than breeding runts or less colourful examples? Yes, of course. Obviously we can't exactly replicate natural selection, but I know here in NZ where there are limited bloodlines people just breed 'common and easy' things like convicts, kribs, jags etc with no regard for the quality of the parents or offspring, usually with just two random fish picked up from the LFS. Are you suggesting we should just indiscriminately breed fish rather than picking out the best parents from a larger group of fish?

And nc_nutcase can you stop with the white font please? Its a real PITA for everyone using them MFK light skin to have to highlight your posts so we can read them. Thanks.

 

[dogofwar]

"Better than breeding...less colourful examples?"

More colorful examples might appeal to (fishkeepers') aesthetics but more colorful examples of fish might make them less well adapted to their environments in nature.

I group line bred fish and hybrids because they're both different than what is found in nature. All fish bred in captivity aren't bred to exhibit certain enahanced traits (as line bred fish, generally, are)...but all fish bred in captivity do deviate in some (small or large way) from breeding by natural selection that takes place in the wild. The opposite of line breeding is taking efforts NOT to enhance/breed for characteristics that aren't typical in a particular wild population.

Taxonomy is the best that we have, albeit imperfect. But thinking that line bred fish are always more authentic to a wild population than a cross of two closely related fish (technically hybrids) is just not true. Both can be wildly different...or a little bit different.

 

[cchhcc]

Better than breeding runts or less colourful examples? Yes, of course. Obviously we can't exactly replicate natural selection, but I know here in NZ where there are limited bloodlines people just breed 'common and easy' things like convicts, kribs, jags etc with no regard for the quality of the parents or offspring, usually with just two random fish picked up from the LFS. Are you suggesting we should just indiscriminately breed fish rather than picking out the best parents from a larger group of fish?

I'm suggesting the fish are better judges of desirable traits than we are.

For example, here is an F0 Lake Nic convict from my group of several wilds pairs and individuals. To my eye, she's the prettiest con I've ever seen, but she cannot find a mate in a large tank with a dozen males (only three of which are currently paired off). No matter what I think, she is viewed as undesirable
by her own species.

Now, most people would breed ONLY that female. They'd take her and some male (also chosen on a superficial basis) and shove them in a small tank where they'd likely breed. Then they'd circulate the fry as "special" and pretty soon you no longer have convicts that truly represent their wild cousins.