CRAZY GAR

[MeAko]

keeping fish in a aquarium is cruel in general imo...

Agreed!

I feel a bit squeamish about all these post that are so strongly worded calling for the fish to be put down.

First, can you guys point me to a study where they were able to confirm that fish are able to comprehend pain? You're just sure they can, right? How about mosquitoes, flies and cockroaches if I THINK they can comprehend pain, can I start to convince you not to swat that mosquito biting on your left ear?

Imagine on the other hand for a second that what looks like a broken spine in our context is actually just a broken nose kind of thing to the fish. Imagine if that fish were to read the posts here encouraging the OP to put it down because of a broken nose.

We're keeping fish for our entertainment, if you guys seem to have a radical passion for the welfare of the fish, then you should be convincing everyone here in this forum not to keep fish in fish tanks.

OP is so pissed, he replied in ALL CAPS! hehe

 

[E_americanus]

Agreed!

I feel a bit squeamish about all these post that are so strongly worded calling for the fish to be put down.

First, can you guys point me to a study where they were able to confirm that fish are able to comprehend pain? You're just sure they can, right? How about mosquitoes, flies and cockroaches if I THINK they can comprehend pain, can I start to convince you not to swat that mosquito biting on your left ear?

Imagine on the other hand for a second that what looks like a broken spine in our context is actually just a broken nose kind of thing to the fish. Imagine if that fish were to read the posts here encouraging the OP to put it down because of a broken nose.

We're keeping fish for our entertainment, if you guys seem to have a radical passion for the welfare of the fish, then you should be convincing everyone here in this forum not to keep fish in fish tanks.

OP is so pissed, he replied in ALL CAPS! hehe

Here's your fish feel pain study:

http://www.physorg.com/news160235874.html

Fish may actually feel pain and react to it much like humans April 29, 2009 by Brian Wallheimer (PhysOrg.com) -- Fish don't make noises or contort their faces to show that it hurts when hooks are pulled from their mouths, but a Purdue University researcher believes they feel that pain all the same.


along with that response, i would pose another couple questions:

- yes, my response was pretty strong, but how much work/experience do you have with gars? this fish is very likely in pain and should have been euthanized. gars have a very unique vertebral morphology in the fish world and it is much more subject to damage in aquaria than other fishes. dissection shows the extent of this.

- yes, keeping fish in aquaria may generally be considered to be somewhat cruel, however, how would you suggest we do the following:

- educate the public or others on the diversity of fishes, their ecology, and promote conservation? yes, your tank specifically may not be doing this, but others' might be...and this also includes public/private large-scale aquaria.

- perform studies/create models for fish bioenergetics and life history...which in turn help manage fisheries in the wild?

- this list could go on for a while...

in short, keeping fishes in aquaria may be cruel on some level, but keeping THIS particular fish is generally irresponsible and not educating anyone (except showing how to irresponsibly keep fishes). i know we become attached to our pets, but if one were smart, they would put down a dog or cat with the equivalent condition as well.--
--solomon

 

[xander]

ALRIGHT GUYS FIRST THERE WONT BE A VIDEO. I WAS JUST TRYING TO GET MY FIRST POST IN. MY GAR IS FINE HE CHASES DOWN FEEDERS LIKE A CRIPPLED BUT GETS PLENTY TO EAT. THE MORE FEEDERS HE EATS THE STRAIGHTER HIS BACK GETS FOR A DAY OR SO. I WONT KILL IT AND I DONT FEEL SORRY FOR IT. HE 'S TANKED WITH 15 DISCUS SO HE WILL BE ALRIGHT. PLUS I DONT HAVE A VIDEO CAM SO WE'RE ****ED EITHER WAY

phatballer, ignore the other hatersd for a while. if you genuinly care for this fish, then you need to pay attention to what e_americanus has said and the links he has posted. he has worked extensivly with gars and knows a great deal more about them than most of us. we all came on this forum to learn right? that means we must accept the fact that others may be right and us wrong. so seriously, do pay attention to e_americanus' advise. it'll do the fish a lot of good.

 

[MeAko]

Here's your fish feel pain study:...

Well, for every assistant professor and doctoral student who conducts a study and concludes that fish MAY feel pain, we also have doctors like Dr. James D. Rose, a professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wyoming who has spent 30 years (God bless him) working on questions of neurology, examining data on the responses of animals to painful stimuli.

In 2003 Rose published a landmark study in the journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concluding that animals need specific regions of the cerebral cortex in order to feel pain. And fish do not have them. Link
​

Here is a link to the full study. Abridged version here.

A BBC article cites Dr. Bruno Broughton, a fish biologist adding: "I doubt that it will come as much of a shock to anglers to learn that fish have sensory cells around their mouths. Nor is it a surprise that, when their lips are injected with poisons, fish respond and behave abnormally.

"However, it is an entirely different matter to draw conclusions about the ability of fish to feel pain, a psychological experience for which they -- literally -- do not have the brains (to)."

The Garner study from the perspective of this individual with a minute exposure to the methodologies of experimental psychology am surprised that they seem to have made such far reaching conclusions from experiments with a significant amount of extraneous variables in it.

I took up BIOPSYCH in college too many times to feel a bit insulted that we seem to be alluding to a fish brain having similar capacities of pain comprehension to us.

The experience of pain depends on functions of our complex, enlarged cerebral hemispheres. The unpleasant emotional aspect of pain is generated by specific regions of the human cerebral hemispheres, esp the frontal lobes. The functional activity of these frontal lobe regions is closely tied to the emotional aspect of pain in humans and damage of these brain regions in people eliminates the unpleasantness of pain. These regions do not exist in a fish brain. Therefore, a fish doesn’t appear to have the neurological capacity to experience the unpleasant psychological aspect of pain. (From Dr Rose's study)

​

I am sure there are millions of things that people in general can disagree about and both can feel strongly about it, backed up by their own individually valid reasons why, this might be one of those.

Am gonna go downstairs now to my pond and stab my RTC with my tongs, just for fun.

 

[E_americanus]

Well, for every assistant professor and doctoral student who conducts a study and concludes that fish MAY feel pain, we also have doctors like Dr. James D. Rose, a professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wyoming who has spent 30 years (God bless him) working on questions of neurology, examining data on the responses of animals to painful stimuli.

In 2003 Rose published a landmark study in the journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concluding that animals need specific regions of the cerebral cortex in order to feel pain. And fish do not have them. Link
​

Here is a link to the full study. Abridged version here.

A BBC article cites Dr. Bruno Broughton, a fish biologist adding: "I doubt that it will come as much of a shock to anglers to learn that fish have sensory cells around their mouths. Nor is it a surprise that, when their lips are injected with poisons, fish respond and behave abnormally.

"However, it is an entirely different matter to draw conclusions about the ability of fish to feel pain, a psychological experience for which they -- literally -- do not have the brains (to)."

The Garner study from the perspective of this individual with a minute exposure to the methodologies of experimental psychology am surprised that they seem to have made such far reaching conclusions from experiments with a significant amount of extraneous variables in it.

I took up BIOPSYCH in college too many times to feel a bit insulted that we seem to be alluding to a fish brain having similar capacities of pain comprehension to us.

The experience of pain depends on functions of our complex, enlarged cerebral hemispheres. The unpleasant emotional aspect of pain is generated by specific regions of the human cerebral hemispheres, esp the frontal lobes. The functional activity of these frontal lobe regions is closely tied to the emotional aspect of pain in humans and damage of these brain regions in people eliminates the unpleasantness of pain. These regions do not exist in a fish brain. Therefore, a fish doesn’t appear to have the neurological capacity to experience the unpleasant psychological aspect of pain. (From Dr Rose's study)

​

I am sure there are millions of things that people in general can disagree about and both can feel strongly about it, backed up by their own individually valid reasons why, this might be one of those.

Am gonna go downstairs now to my pond and stab my RTC with my tongs, just for fun.

well put response, if not somewhat insulting and studies outdated, but at least you did some research. i'm currently saving some of the references for further review, but of course don't have a ton of time to further debate fish pain vs human pain (the latter of which is still not well understood) right now.

that all being said, what is your response to the questions/points of conservation, energetics models, and life history studies? i'm interested to know as one may only be a doctoral student and nothing more...

that also being said, my stronger response was elicited by the fact that the fish in question is a gar, and i guarantee i've had more experience in dealing with these fishes than the folks in our cited studies so far. let's also not forget common sense (a rarity of course) in that most people in their right mind (oh no, more psychology!) would think keeping this fish in this condition is cruel.

even if we don't fully understand how fishes feel pain, it doesn't mean they should be placed in the situation of the original poster.--
--solomon

 

[E_americanus]

couldn't resist at least SOME digging...still working on getting the full article, but luckily for us they always explain the full plot and ending in the abstract. it should also be noted that this was one of the studies in response to the one you note (Rose 2002)...let's not forget that that was 8 years ago, and science tends to move forward...

Fish and welfare: do fish have the capacity for pain perception and suffering?

Authors: Braithwaite, V.A.; Huntingford, F.A. Source: Animal Welfare, Volume 13, Supplement 1, February 2004 , pp. 87-92(6)
Publisher: Universities Federation for Animal Welfare


Abstract:
Humans interact with fish in a number of ways and the question of whether fish have the capacity to perceive pain and to suffer has recently attracted considerable attention in both scientific and public fora. Only very recently have neuroanatomical studies revealed that teleost fish possess similar pain-processing receptors to higher vertebrates. Research has also shown that fish neurophysiology and behaviour are altered in response to noxious stimulation. In the light of this evidence, and in combination with work illustrating the cognitive capacities of fish, it seems appropriate to respond to a recently published critique (Rose 2002) in which it is argued that it is not possible for fish to experience fear or pain and that, therefore, they cannot suffer. Whilst we agree with the author that fish are unlikely to perceive pain in the same way that humans do, we believe that currently available evidence indicates that fish have the capacity for pain perception and suffering. As such, it would seem timely to reflect on the implications of fish pain and suffering, and to consider what steps can be taken to ensure the welfare of the fish that we exploit.

========

i think we can agree that fishes likely don't feel pain in the same way humans do, but we don't even fully understand how humans feel pain either. the overarching point was that keeping this particular animal alive in this condition is irresponsible.--
--solomon

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

This thread is worth getting phat for!!!!

 

[E_americanus]

This thread is worth getting phat for!!!!

haha, unfortunately it's also more or less arguing on internet forums...which is a waste of time in most cases...should probably have just begun and ended my response by merely posting...

 

[oddballer]

I think this fish should be bred and its offspring released into the wild.... talk about strong genes.... this one is a fighter....

 

[Gr8KarmaSF]

haha, unfortunately it's also more or less arguing on internet forums...which is a waste of time in most cases...should probably have just begun and ended my response by merely posting...

Thou, its always nice when mature adults can actually discuss with facts and research and AGREE to DISagree...

I think this fish should be bred and its offspring released into the wild.... talk about strong genes.... this one is a fighter....

BWHAHAHAHAH!!!

I think we should cross breed it with Neo so thats its a super strong albino short bodied gar.....