CREATING THE ULTIMATE FILTRATION AND EVOLVING WITH YOUR FISH!!!!!!

[David R]

Drips could be considered the "holy grail" for Nitrate, but if the water coming out of the drip is crap (8.8+Ph Nitrate 15ppm) then it's still going to be stressing rays isn't it?

I've incorporated 2 big stock tanks and will begin messing with RO in one of them. While a drip might not be an option anymore I think with several waterchanges a week with mixed water I can still get decent results, with decent water.

IMO you'd actually have BETTER results with small frequent changes than a continuous trickle. I've often wondered how efficient the condinuous drip is, obviously they work, but to achieve enough dilution you must chew thru far more water. A friend [I need to point this thread out to him] had an automated system that had a barrel with float valve filling up from the tap, with a pump on a timer to change about 15% [iirc] of the water daily in about 3-4 small doses. The sump had a drain at the right height and the waste just ran out and into the drain. Here is a feeding video of the tank, so you can see its well stocked (no comments on stocking levels!!! ) and other than the auto system it NEVER got a water change/siphon and the water was always great.

Obviously the more water you change in one hit the more Nitrate you remove. The downside of this is that the more water you change the greater the fluctuations in parameters, and if we're talking about doing 50% every 10 days instead of 25% every 5 days, then the Nitrates have twice as long to build up before a change. I've always felt that big water changes (>40-50%) shouldn't be necessary on an aquarium, if you need to change 80% of the water to get your nitrates back to an acceptable level then you've probably left it too long since the last WC and let them get too high, and its time to start doing more regular changes or invest in an automated drip-type set up. I know not everyone will share this point of view, and some people swear by massive changes religiously, but I have never needed to do more than about a 40% change on any tank I've ever kept to keep the Nitrates in check (nb; there have obviously been times when I have done more than 40%, I'm talking about the regular weekly waterchange here, not exceptional circumstances).

IMO the best way to keep Nirtates in check is with a small daily water change, adding enough clean water to displace the old and dilute the Nitrate, but not so much as to radically alter the parameters. Unfortunately with my planned set up I don't have easy access to a drain or tap where I can leave it permanently plumbed in place. However, I will still be putting a drain in the sump so I can perform a water change simply by opening the tap and unrolling the hose out the garage door, then adding new water into the tank from the laundry across the hall. Whether this will be done daily or a few times a week remains to be seen and will obviously depend on the stock. With a barrel, timer, dosing pump and heater this kind of system could easily be automated to pre-heat and pre-treat the water with all sorts of different things.

I just read everything. New info for me personally is the "settling tank" concept. My next set up (hopefully very large) will have this if possible. From what I understand the settling tank may take up a lot of space to slow the water enough for it to work properly. Flow has to slow way down for "dirt" to settle out. Also, how would this get cleaned? It seems a cone shaped tank bottom with a valve at the bottom would be great or tilt a tank on it's side slightly to collect everything in the corner? Just open the valve once a week and flow the crap out until the water runs clean. I'm very lazy.

I used to siphon my old settling chamber as part of the weekly WC, and yes it was a PITA, especially as the stand wasn't designed for it and there was only about a 100mm gap between the top of the chamber and the stand! Even more of a hassle when a small fish ends up in there...

With regards to the flow, yes it does need to be slow to let the debris settle out, but with the right width/height tank its not too hard to manage that. I have spent hours [one of the things I love about my job!] thinking about the conical base or sloping tank to try make it easier to clean, but as yet haven't come up with a workable solution. I was planning on putting a drain in the base and then when the filter is off for a WC just stir it up so all the muck is suspended in the water and open the valve and home the bulk of it goes down the drain. Not perfect, but certainly easier than siphoning!

How useful this type of thing will be depends on the fish you're keeping too. My main reason for wanting it is because of the Panaques I plan to keep. Not sure if you've kept any large wood-eating plecs before, but I've always found they make huge amounts of "sawdust" that rapidly clogs filters.



Something that is intrigued me is how JohnPTC has his wet-dry filtration on the 10k gallon tank. The chamber filled with bio media fills with water and when it reaches a certain level floods a siphon which rapidly drains it again, allowing the water to have good contact with the media while maintaining high oxygen levels. His is on a pretty massive scale (4 55g drums IIRC!!) but I imagine it would be easy enough to set up on a smaller scale for a "normal sized" big aquarium. His is the only set up I've seen like this, I'd be interested to see others.

 

[henward]

IMO you'd actually have BETTER results with small frequent changes than a continuous trickle. I've often wondered how efficient the condinuous drip is, obviously they work, but to achieve enough dilution you must chew thru far more water. A friend [I need to point this thread out to him] had an automated system that had a barrel with float valve filling up from the tap, with a pump on a timer to change about 15% [iirc] of the water daily in about 3-4 small doses. The sump had a drain at the right height and the waste just ran out and into the drain. Here is a feeding video of the tank, so you can see its well stocked (no comments on stocking levels!!! ) and other than the auto system it NEVER got a water change/siphon and the water was always great.

Obviously the more water you change in one hit the more Nitrate you remove. The downside of this is that the more water you change the greater the fluctuations in parameters, and if we're talking about doing 50% every 10 days instead of 25% every 5 days, then the Nitrates have twice as long to build up before a change. I've always felt that big water changes (>40-50%) shouldn't be necessary on an aquarium, if you need to change 80% of the water to get your nitrates back to an acceptable level then you've probably left it too long since the last WC and let them get too high, and its time to start doing more regular changes or invest in an automated drip-type set up. I know not everyone will share this point of view, and some people swear by massive changes religiously, but I have never needed to do more than about a 40% change on any tank I've ever kept to keep the Nitrates in check (nb; there have obviously been times when I have done more than 40%, I'm talking about the regular weekly waterchange here, not exceptional circumstances).

IMO the best way to keep Nirtates in check is with a small daily water change, adding enough clean water to displace the old and dilute the Nitrate, but not so much as to radically alter the parameters. Unfortunately with my planned set up I don't have easy access to a drain or tap where I can leave it permanently plumbed in place. However, I will still be putting a drain in the sump so I can perform a water change simply by opening the tap and unrolling the hose out the garage door, then adding new water into the tank from the laundry across the hall. Whether this will be done daily or a few times a week remains to be seen and will obviously depend on the stock. With a barrel, timer, dosing pump and heater this kind of system could easily be automated to pre-heat and pre-treat the water with all sorts of different things.



I used to siphon my old settling chamber as part of the weekly WC, and yes it was a PITA, especially as the stand wasn't designed for it and there was only about a 100mm gap between the top of the chamber and the stand! Even more of a hassle when a small fish ends up in there...

With regards to the flow, yes it does need to be slow to let the debris settle out, but with the right width/height tank its not too hard to manage that. I have spent hours [one of the things I love about my job!] thinking about the conical base or sloping tank to try make it easier to clean, but as yet haven't come up with a workable solution. I was planning on putting a drain in the base and then when the filter is off for a WC just stir it up so all the muck is suspended in the water and open the valve and home the bulk of it goes down the drain. Not perfect, but certainly easier than siphoning!

How useful this type of thing will be depends on the fish you're keeping too. My main reason for wanting it is because of the Panaques I plan to keep. Not sure if you've kept any large wood-eating plecs before, but I've always found they make huge amounts of "sawdust" that rapidly clogs filters.



Something that is intrigued me is how JohnPTC has his wet-dry filtration on the 10k gallon tank. The chamber filled with bio media fills with water and when it reaches a certain level floods a siphon which rapidly drains it again, allowing the water to have good contact with the media while maintaining high oxygen levels. His is on a pretty massive scale (4 55g drums IIRC!!) but I imagine it would be easy enough to set up on a smaller scale for a "normal sized" big aquarium. His is the only set up I've seen like this, I'd be interested to see others.

David has always been against my stocking levels but i am a semi convert to the lesser stocking levels now.
the friend is me, he is referring to with the auto changer. Just will convey my experience.

My motivation for the auto changer was based on laziness. I had a choice, do water changes 2 to 3 times a week, whch i hated and was about to quit the hobby OR figure out a way to make it easier, the only thing i hated was WCs, and that was the thing that would hvae stopped me from continuing in the hobby.

So, easy.

Drum with a toilet ball valve system in it, hose, and timers. done!
cost me no more than $200 bux, most of which was the food grade drum of 200Litres.

All i had was a timer that fed in water, 24x a day (every hour on the hour) it would go at a rate minimum of 800ML a minute to a maximum of 4 litres a minute (which was never used except for large water replacement during treatment)
I never preheated the water.
our water was clean enough to never need any agers or chemicals too. but you can easily work around having to age water, bigger drum perhaps, or a semi manual approach.

the water would trickle at approx 15litres over 15 minutes 24x a day.

i found that to start off with, you need to up this to reduce the nitrates. My nitrates were no more than 15ppm, sometimes almost just detectable by the test kit (not kidding).
my system was a total of a 600litre grow out tank, 1200litre tank, 200ish litres sump.

i found that the small amount of water that goes in is unfelt by the fish, temperature doesnt change much and ph too.
I believe if your system is big enough, you can also preheat the water, and just turn it on to replace a large chunk, with a system of about 2000litres plus, a 25% water change will not affect ph too much - if the temp is the same, that is also a good idea.

but i preferred the smallest impact on the water parameters so i decided doing a change over 24 hour period.
I never siphoned gravel because its too fine to have dirt trapped under it, and the clonw oaches would disturb the sand enough to keep the dirt floating as you can see by the video.

My drain had to be big enough to handled the out flow, also to handle the chance of powercuts, and having the water drain from the main tank suddenly flow down into the sump. BUT, if you design your overflows to ensure there is no overfill, then this isnt an issue.

As for settling chamber, i havent tried it, but interested to use some sort of pre filter chamber as i have many royal plecos, they really really like to crap out wood dust lol

i find that my definition of 'too much work' is not the same as other's definition.
I used to be happy with having to replace and clean 4 filter socks a week, and 3x fx5s every 10 to 14 days.
while some see that is extreme, for me, it was fine.

Small water changes for any fish is best, so they dont get temperature shocks, even preheating water, the ph could change but like i said, tank big enough need not worry.

A auto changer too has a big benefit of cosntantly diluting the water, and any spikes (incase your filter cant handle it) can be minimized by the constant flow of fresh water.

i fed dramatic amounts of food, even almost a fist size of beef heart mince at one stage - and never had an issue with my set up.

Some countries cannot hvae this system due to having to treat the water.
If so, then a semi manual is key.

a big drum, fill it, treat it, and when you need to, turn on the pump (weater pre heated) and just pump into ythe tank. Your sump must have a drain hole though. OR you have 2 pumps, one in the tank so everyone you pump water into the tank, you have a pump at the other end of the tank to pump water out. semi auto changing.

 

[jcardona1]

The downside of this is that the more water you change the greater the fluctuations in parameters [...] adding enough clean water to displace the old and dilute the Nitrate, but not so much as to radically alter the parameters.

What fluctuating parameters are you talking here? I think it's a non-issue. The more fresh water you put in the tank the more the parameters equal that coming out of the tap. Over the course of a few weeks your tank parameters should be identical to your tap water. There should be zero parameter impact. If you add a drip on an established system you'll obviously want to take it slow to let the waters reach equilibrium. But after a while, there should be no risk.

Temperature? Dripping water in at a few gallons per hour will do nothing to your temps in my experience.

Hardness? Again, a non-issue as two should be identical with frequent water changes

Ph? With frequent water changes PH should be identical as well. Any differences you see between tank and tap are due to Co2 in the water. Let it sit for 24hrs and you'll notice a difference in the Ph reading. And gas-induced Ph swings don't have any effect on a fish's osmotic regulation (think co2-injection in planted tanks).​

For me, drip systems and auto water changes are for convenience. Sure you may get better results with small daily water changes and waste less water but that's the last thing I want to be doing on a daily basis. I just don't have the time or the desire to do this much maintenance on a daily basis.

 

[clekchau]

Key is being ready for and giving the animal space DIAZ ..And that vidio you keep posting i see worse at LFS everywhere not that i would condone what the vidio shows because i don't!!! But i definatly think your efforts would be better spent being more constructive and easier on the bashing brotherAs far as the the Media i did that purposly not really more then a handfull of bio balls the rest is K-1 type media but my point is and will be plastic media is plastic media no matter the shape it will grow BB"s

Soon i will not have ANY open media bins as i am changing with my fishes needs and learning along the way as much as i have learned about keeping fish it just makes me realize how much more i have to learn and will continue to move forward !!!! Sump type systems will very soon be a thing of the past this technology very old and dirty inefficient there are many new ways to filter your tanks and i will post the changes in my tanks as i change them the victories as well as failures sometimes we can learn more from a failure and we can't be afraid to show both!!!!!! Also guys i will draw a schematic of my water flows so everybody can see how they flow And how they will change with my filtration i hope everybody finds it interesting because i sure Do!!!!

well you encouraged it by saying you would keep a 70 lb grouper in a 600 gallon so .... if you can't take it, don't dish it out lol

regarding your setup, it's actually been on my mind lately, i have a sump but also a 150 gallon stock tank plumbed to the main tank that i could do something like yours quite easily. the only thing is, my sump setup and 'low' flow (5000 gph pool pump) works great, i just have to change the bio pad every other day but its not so bad i guess..

 

[clekchau]

What fluctuating parameters are you talking here? I think it's a non-issue. The more fresh water you put in the tank the more the parameters equal that coming out of the tap. Over the course of a few weeks your tank parameters should be identical to your tap water. There should be zero parameter impact. If you add a drip on an established system you'll obviously want to take it slow to let the waters reach equilibrium. But after a while, there should be no risk.

Temperature? Dripping water in at a few gallons per hour will do nothing to your temps in my experience.

Hardness? Again, a non-issue as two should be identical with frequent water changes

Ph? With frequent water changes PH should be identical as well. Any differences you see between tank and tap are due to Co2 in the water. Let it sit for 24hrs and you'll notice a difference in the Ph reading. And gas-induced Ph swings don't have any effect on a fish's osmotic regulation (think co2-injection in planted tanks).​

For me, drip systems and auto water changes are for convenience. Sure you may get better results with small daily water changes and waste less water but that's the last thing I want to be doing on a daily basis. I just don't have the time or the desire to do this much maintenance on a daily basis.

absolutely, i am running my first drip system and can't believe i went so long without one! maintenance on the tank is actually fun now.

 

[David R]

What fluctuating parameters are you talking here?

Should have made that clearer, I was talking about the old-fashioned weekly water change, not continuous/semi-automated type systems, and how changing 50% of your water at a time will lead to fluctuations in temp, pH etc unless your tap water is close to your tank water. Obviously a continuous drip system will have the least effect on water temp/hardness etc compared to the other extreme of a once a week 80% wc, and that is one of the best things about the automated systems.

Obviously a constant change type system is going to be the most convenient, what I was thinking/trying to figure out is that will having a system with a tiny dribble of water constantly flowing in need to use a lot more water per week to achieve the same level of dilution as a one-hit daily wc. If I lived in town I wouldn't be worrying, the water doesn't cost that much here, but we're now dependant on rain water as we're out of town. We have one 25000L collection tank, and the old owners said that was plenty for them and their kids, but I'm still thinking we may need to get an additional tank put in. I really don't want to have to get water brought in over summer if we run out!

 

[henward]

Should have made that clearer, I was talking about the old-fashioned weekly water change, not continuous/semi-automated type systems, and how changing 50% of your water at a time will lead to fluctuations in temp, pH etc unless your tap water is close to your tank water. Obviously a continuous drip system will have the least effect on water temp/hardness etc compared to the other extreme of a once a week 80% wc, and that is one of the best things about the automated systems.

Obviously a constant change type system is going to be the most convenient, what I was thinking/trying to figure out is that will having a system with a tiny dribble of water constantly flowing in need to use a lot more water per week to achieve the same level of dilution as a one-hit daily wc. If I lived in town I wouldn't be worrying, the water doesn't cost that much here, but we're now dependant on rain water as we're out of town. We have one 25000L collection tank, and the old owners said that was plenty for them and their kids, but I'm still thinking we may need to get an additional tank put in. I really don't want to have to get water brought in over summer if we run out!

It is always a mystery to me when it comes to discus breeders.
most are asian where i am from, New Zealand.
and they tend to do it the old fashioned way.
changing about 50 to 80% of the water daily or every other day.
if they did a auto change system, they can do this through out the day, with the same effect of replacing water even 100% with minimal PH impact. and just spend 10 seconds on each tank (usually small anyways) on siphoning the dirt from the bottom, and rest is taken care of by the auto system

but some dont accept there is a better, way, maybe im missing something.
what possible benefit does it have on changing the water 50 to 100% every day, in a discus tank manually, when you can cut 90% of the time by doing a auto draining auto water change system.

the water can all be pre heated so temp isnt an issue, but ph will be constant in a drip system, vs one massive gulp.
ph changes as the fish produce waste and i hear discus tend to change the water just by their slime coat.

 

[jlnguyen74]

It is always a mystery to me when it comes to discus breeders.
most are asian where i am from, New Zealand.
and they tend to do it the old fashioned way.
changing about 50 to 80% of the water daily or every other day.
if they did a auto change system, they can do this through out the day, with the same effect of replacing water even 100% with minimal PH impact. and just spend 10 seconds on each tank (usually small anyways) on siphoning the dirt from the bottom, and rest is taken care of by the auto system

but some dont accept there is a better, way, maybe im missing something.
what possible benefit does it have on changing the water 50 to 100% every day, in a discus tank manually, when you can cut 90% of the time by doing a auto draining auto water change system.

the water can all be pre heated so temp isnt an issue, but ph will be constant in a drip system, vs one massive gulp.
ph changes as the fish produce waste and i hear discus tend to change the water just by their slime coat.

They may store and treat water before using it to do water change. Besides, they may not have the confident with other gadget then their own routine. Sounds like me!

 

[henward]

They may store and treat water before using it to do water change. Besides, they may not have the confident with other gadget then their own routine. Sounds like me!

haha ok
well, its cheap enough to buy a 1000 litre holding tank, which would be plenty for a small size hobby breeder.
treat that, and heat that, use that water, and top up every few days, still gonna save lots of time.
the equipment is only a internal pump, i have never had an internal pump fail.

 

[aldiaz33]

And i can guarantee you folks i can take a bumble Bee grouper raise him to 70 pounds of absolute magnificence in a 600 gallon tank all be it a different dimension being 96x48x30 !!!!!Where are ya Diaz?????

I'm not going to ruin a good thread, so if you just here to talk filtration, then let's talk filtration. You brought the grouper to this thread, not Jose. Some of us chose to ignore it, because we're talking about filtration, not about grouper. That grouper could be pet, nitrate, or dinner...

I agree that maintaining stable water parameters is something vital to the health of the fish we keep. Spikes in Nitrate levels and PH levels will (over time) take their toll on the fish, just as same as temperature swing. Fortunately, those are something that we can work with, like drip system, doing frequently small water change. Also, keeper and fish can learn and adjusting with each other. Some learns from those "mystery death," and work with it. Some shy from those "mystery death." That's individual's choice. If fish can learn to adjust to the environment, likes African Scat that live in freshwater, they can adjust to live in America or California water, too. Just like wildcaught fish tend to be more "sensitive" than captive bred. Is it because they're weak gene, or is it because they just need time to adjust to their new environment? That's just a rehtorical question...

Well, I quoted this from a Koi's site:

In my defense, Hulon called me out (see above or go to post #6), so I showed what a 70lbs fish in a small tank looks like. I think it's a bit unfair to fault me for that...I responded to being called out...it's not as if I randomly came into this thread and posted it out of the blue.

I worded it poorly, but what I meant is that Jose had brought up the issue of Nitrates, not the issue of the BB Grouper. It was the issue of high nitrates building up that Jose had first mentioned, but it came out confusing because I mentioned it in the same sentence as the Grouper. I apologize for wording that poorly.

But back to the topic, it's interesting to see all the different methods of mechanical and bio filtration. Although I have heard they are awesome, I would never run those Bakki Showers on my tank because they would act like an enourmous chiller in the winter time. I believe Hulon's tank is in his garage that gets down into the 40s at night (IIRC), so I'm guessing he wouldn't want to run something like that either...especially now that he's running all those pumps. Adding to the electric bill is something I'm always trying to avoid...yes, I am a cheapskate.

Is anyone trying to run a system that supports denitrifying bacteria? It seems like the settling chamber that David R is using might be ideal for that.