Different appearance of Leopordi p13

[T1KARMANN]

A Pot. leopoldi collectet from Belo Monte looks different than one from Altamira or the Rio Iriri. One from Sao Felix do Rio Xingu or more upwards the Xingu, like the Mato Grosso area, even looks totally different!! They all MAY be Pot. leopldi, but have a different appearance!


If they are all the same, why are we for example talking about:

• Geophagus altifrons 'Xingu'
• Geophagus altifrons 'Rio Negro'
• Geophagus altifrons 'Tocantins'
• Geophagus altifrons 'Araguaia'
• Geophagus altifrons 'Trombetas'
• Geophagus altifrons 'Curuà'
• Geophagus altifrons 'Guamà'
• Geophagus altifrons 'Maicuru'
• and so on.........

For sure not out of financial reasons and that's why I have choosen Geophaugs and not Symphysodon like Jeffrey and his brown discus
They are all out of the same species, Geophagus altifrons, just like all Pot. leopoldi or all human beeings are out of the species H. sapiens, either if they are chinese, europeans or africans, but we have found different terms for all of them!
Why should it be illlegitimate to do the same for Pot. leopoldi, which already has been done for Geophagus altifrons or Symphysodon aequifasciatus and why should there only be financial reasons

I would also prefer a termination depending on the tributary or the next bigger city to the place they are caught, like Pot. leopoldi 'Rio Iriri', 'Altamira', 'Sao Felix', 'Mato Grosso' or what ever......

But we cannot use the same type of terms like we do in Geophagus or discus, because noone ever has exactly discovered, when it would still have been possible! Maybe really also because of this:



But now it's too late to discover it down there, because of the IBAMA and we propably really have to find different names like 'Black Diamon' for different appearances of Pot. leopoldi.....but if we want to know what we are speeking about, somebody has to start giving terms or a system to create those terms like Andi (rayman) has already tried to do for P14.
But in case of P14, I am not sure if there really are geographical differences, because P14 much to less discovered or exported in the past at all

Regards
Stefan

what you are saying is true but the same can be said for motoro

lots of fancy names to kick up the price it also seams its the breeders/importers who give the names to kick up the price like with asian aros fire red its just a name that sound cool

when people tell me they are getting a so called galaxy p14 i just and think all that means is it has a few more spots and you paid more $$$$$ for it

my 13 year old has more spots than my 7 year old daughter does that make her better

 

[fugupuff]

stefan i follow what you say.... and if we could breed as per river that would be good but now its kinda impossible to ID what river a ray is from... this method is to add $$$ signs wich is bs some rays will always be nicer than others but that doesnt alway mean they will be worth 3x the price...

think of dogs, most are the same species: for example a german shepard, can range from $300 to $20,000, due to specific traits they posses, and its the same exact dog.

or lets compare apple to apple:

asian arowanas, sceloropages formosus, which are now actually 3 different species. why would a red with more red be worth more than a red with just orange?

or a red tail gold with more gold., or a cross back gold with higher cross on the back? their prices would vary 10 folds anytime.

likewise, leopoldi with more spots, if they're not as available and more desirable, then they would command a higher price.

if someone likes leopoldi with less spots, that is ok too. beauty is certainly in the eye of the "collector" here.

while on this note, what about that leo. in the aqualog book that's all black with just 2 white spots towards the base? what is up with that one? I'd love to get my hands on that one!

 

[StefanW]

well P14 all come from the same location don't they

As far as I know, P14 are coming from the Tapajos and its tributaries! That’s an area, which is at least half as big as Europe!!
Their distribution in the Tapajos ranges AT LEAST from Itaituba to Jacareacanga and down the Rio Jamanxim. Still an area, bigger than whole germany! I only know, that they are coming out of this huge area, do you know more? Who knows the exact place, where a certain P14 has been caught in this area? Only the few brasilian guys, who have caught them there and they surely did not tell them! What if the ones with the lots of spots are only caught near Jacareacanga and the ones with not so many spots only 1000km’s down at Itaituba?? We can’t find it out so easy or maybe never, so why shouldn’t we give trivial names for obviously different appearances?

what you are saying is true but the same can be said for motoro

Of course, nothing can be said against trivial names for different appearances of motoros!

asian arowanas, sceloropages formosus, which are now actually 3 different species. why would a red with more red be worth more than a red with just orange?

Simply because somewhere out there is someone who is willed to pay a higher price for those….

likewise, leopoldi with more spots, if they're not as available and more desirable, then they would command a higher price.

I would indeed pay at least 3x the common leo price for a well dotted Sao Felix Leo, cause I like them so much and they are so rare. And if we would not have a term for “Sao Felix Leos’ I think I would not have any chance to get one ever. Maybe I do not have a chance anyway
I know, that it's not possible at the moment, to name different Leos like Geophagus altifrons, but nevertheless, I would not refuse to accept certain terms for them!

what about that leo. in the aqualog book that's all black with just 2 white spots towards the base? what is up with that one? I'd love to get my hands on that one!

Me too

Regards
Stefan

 

[StefanW]

or lets compare apple to apple

Right, apple to apple, all derived from Malus communis and all with the same distribution, but thousands of different terms for thousands of different appearances, tasts, or other characteristics.........and why? ONLY to make more money with an apple-tree

 

[T1KARMANN]

think of dogs, most are the same species: for example a german shepard, can range from $300 to $20,000, due to specific traits they posses, and its the same exact dog.

or lets compare apple to apple:

asian arowanas, sceloropages formosus, which are now actually 3 different species. why would a red with more red be worth more than a red with just orange?

or a red tail gold with more gold., or a cross back gold with higher cross on the back? their prices would vary 10 folds anytime.

likewise, leopoldi with more spots, if they're not as available and more desirable, then they would command a higher price.

if someone likes leopoldi with less spots, that is ok too. beauty is certainly in the eye of the "collector" here.

while on this note, what about that leo. in the aqualog book that's all black with just 2 white spots towards the base? what is up with that one? I'd love to get my hands on that one!

lets face it when did the last wild caught p14 come on to the market

their are more p14 for sale now than their was before a ban so the collection points of p14 doesnt matter ALL p14 are now only being collected in holland and germany and soooon to be US

 

[fugupuff]

whether we like it or not, rays will be the next asian arowana, so far it is already, monumental in its trading. only difference is Indonesia/malaysia/thailand/and singapore will NOT be the exlusive producers or monopolies.

For rays in Europe, we have several breeding giants, in the U.S., there's very few, just one of our own with a fully dedicated breeding to all rays.

In Asia, many farms are working hard trying to "cash" in on this. To the purists, they'll be content with pure bred rays, and only recognize wild caught variations as a "true" specie.

to the fish farms in asia, they'll hybridize, inbreed, line breed, until they get the desired trait they want, diamond, crystal, platinum, 2 heads, 3 tails, so more money could be made.

 

[fugupuff]

everything in the world is market driven. supply and demand.

in order of price and desirability.

10 years ago- pearl ray only one in japan was $10k., non were in hobby
leopoldi $400
henlei $250-300
tiger ray, flower ray, not available
p14, black diamond-unheard of on the state side
motoro 100-150 each

5 years ago pearl rays were 3-4k, oliver had them
large tiger rays 1000-1500 each
flower ray debut- jon rare, dave webber
ceja, antenna were cheap 100-250 bucks
leopoldi would retail at 250-400 or anyblack rays
motoro as cheap as $50 each
new morphs of motoro started to appear-chain gang, marble,
and commanded higher prices

3 years ago, black rays were as cheap as $150-200
pearl ray surplus sold for $250-400 each!!!
p14 were about 6-800 made a brief appearance

2 years ago black ray band start-but illegal ones were commonly traded, for as cheap as $200 each
flower rays and tiger rays price dropped-peru trying to sell a lot to fill the black ray gap. as cheap as $400 for them


after that, the black ray price soared!
p14 price doubled in the last year
black diamond in the asian markets...through the roof
pearl are not as expensive, seem like their more prolific

feel free to add or edit to that.

 

[SovietFireExtinguisher]

what about that leo. in the aqualog book that's all black with just 2 white spots towards the base? what is up with that one? I'd love to get my hands on that one!

I went straight to that book to look it up and I could not find it. Is it the Aqualog book tittled Freshwater Stingrays from South America, by Richard A. Ross, or is it Aqualog Subwasser Rochen Freshwater Rays by Richard A. Ross and Frank Schafer ? I also have the Barrons book too. I would really love to see that Ray.

 

[Zoodiver]

whether we like it or not, rays will be the next asian arowana.......

I agree. Sadly, I hate to see that happen. All it does is ruin the true genetic lines in order for human profit. How many people claim they are in the hobby for the fish... then go buy a super hybrid/cross bred/line bred fish for how it looks. Now they have a super expensive fish that can be found NOWHERE in nature. To me, that is against the point of keeping fish.

Any names beyond the latin (and maybe going as far as geographic location) are purely for making money.

 

[Mark Huveneers]

I don't agree, for example:

I am looking for some Black Diamond Leopoldis --> People with some knowledge of rays know now that I am looking for Leopoldis with a certain appearance. This narrows down the search (probably get offered anything but BDs...lol... but that is besides the point).
If i wrote: I am looking for Leopoldis --> any type is fine. The problem is I don't want any type, I want the freakin BDs because they are more beautiful in my opinion. And yes I am willing to pay more, not because of the name but because the name does them justice, they really are Black Diamonds!

Go on then, bring on the offers