discus questions?

[WyldFya]

I call complete BS on this one..................How on earth do you think you can back this up?? It's a little easier to keep a 55 clean maybe, but that only means larger amounts of water being changed.

You'll get full size wonderful adults in your 180, just keep the water clean and feed lots of different foods!

I can back it up with experience. Even in a 135 compared to a 55, the discus grow much smaller than in a 55. With regular discus waterchanges, and the same food. Maybe you should watch your mouth before shooting it off in things you have no knowledge in. Ever wondered why all the discus breeders actively selling, and all the show competitors keep their discus is 40s? It isn't money, I'll tell you that much.

 

[WyldFya]

In fact, Watley says that discus have a chemical that slows growth when they are in smaller tanks........comes from getting trapped in "pools" during the dry season and conserving food/energy by staying smaller. Don't know that it's been proven, but he raises amazing fish that are plenty big...........

and these 7+" fish were raised in a 110 gallon.........

Serious discus keepers do daily water changes, because of this, the hormone cannot buildup. This will happen even in larger tanks. Please site where you got the numbers for that.

 

[WyldFya]

well what about a really small tank like a 30 Gal. Would i be ridiculously big?
and what about the discus that are in the wild... how big do they get?

Discus in the wild can attain a varied size. Those that our domestic discus come from don't get nearly as big as the specimens we keep in aquaria. Wild greens though can top out at 8".

 

[Dkarc]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you......

Asian breeders do NOT breed and raise up competition sized fish in 40s (not even American breeders). They use at minimum their "4foot" tanks, which are around 95 gallons. Others I have seen use even larger tanks. Just depends on the breeder.

Now when it comes to raising up larger sized fish in smaller tanks, IMO it is totally dependant upon the overall water quality, tank maintenance, feeding schedule and the genetics of the fish. Most people get larger fish when they keep them in smaller tanks because they do more frequent water changes and are just overall more careful of the general water quality. Frequent water changes maintain superior water quality (no ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc), help keep the O2 levels up and remove any feces/left over food which will deteriorate the water quality. It is a proven fact that fish who actively swim throughout their tank/vat grow faster and healthier. It is the simple fact of the constant movement that builds muscle faster. Fish which dont swim around very much are generally just fat fish and grow at a slightly slower pace.

Now for Wattley and his GIH "effect" IMO is a myth. It is all just a matter of maintaining proper water quality. Instead of a growth inhibiting hormone/phermone, I believe it is more like growth inhibiting "factors". Factors like high ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, low O2, poor feed quality, low/high temp etc. There has yet to be a study to prove that there are any types of hormones/phermones that are released to keep other fish smaller. It cant be proven because it doesnt exist. Maintain the proper water quality by keeping ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, O2, water flow, temp, etc. and all will be well for your fish.

And for the overall size of discus, it has A LOT to do with genetics. When I bred a lot of the newer color types they wouldnt always get to the huge size the classic types would (6" tops). The older, stronger types will easily get to a huge size. IMO, it has a lot to do with poor selection of cross/in breeding. The classic color types have been inbred quite a bit and have had a chance to breed out the weak characteristics. Which is why they can get to a huge size. The newer color types are in reality not all that old and they have been outcrossed to several different color types in order to get the desired color. When the Asian breeders did this, they dont always choose the best initial stock to cross with, which means any recessive traits can and will show up in generations down the line. This explains why some discus stock (say from the Stendker farm,which have been inbred for years ) can get to huge sizes (8"+) and why others (like discus from Asia) may not always grow to the owners expectations. So regardless of the water quality, some color types just wont grow as some people think they should.

-Ryan
Orlando Discus

 

[sledge760]

Thanks for the comments. I will still be converting my 180 South American set up to Discus next month. I really don't plan on entering my fish in any contest anyway. As long as they are healthy and grow to adults.

 

[DigThemLows]

Serious discus keepers do daily water changes, because of this, the hormone cannot buildup. This will happen even in larger tanks. Please site where you got the numbers for that.

Don't know what numbers you're asking for, but those discus are mine and they grew in a larger tank. I don't mean to seem out of hand but to say that discus grow larger in a smaller tank doesn't make sense on any level. And if it worked for you, were they the same strain, from the same parents, with the same water params the entire time?? Blanket statements made to seem like facts are what scares people about discus and I hope that folks only look at them for what they are, an opinion..........to the original poster, please read up on this lovely, and lively fish, and enjoy! I've kept and bred them off and on for 15 years and they thrive with good food and clean water..........you don't need to worry about PH, or RO, or other stuff...........someone out there has a great signature that says, "take care of your water and your fish will take care of themselves".....................good advice........

I don't doubt you have lots of knowledge about fish, in fact, from your posts you are very very informed..........I still call BS on the little tank growing larger fish.........it cant/doesn't make any scientific sense.

 

[DigThemLows]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you......

Asian breeders do NOT breed and raise up competition sized fish in 40s (not even American breeders). They use at minimum their "4foot" tanks, which are around 95 gallons. Others I have seen use even larger tanks. Just depends on the breeder.

Now when it comes to raising up larger sized fish in smaller tanks, IMO it is totally dependant upon the overall water quality, tank maintenance, feeding schedule and the genetics of the fish. Most people get larger fish when they keep them in smaller tanks because they do more frequent water changes and are just overall more careful of the general water quality. Frequent water changes maintain superior water quality (no ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc), help keep the O2 levels up and remove any feces/left over food which will deteriorate the water quality. It is a proven fact that fish who actively swim throughout their tank/vat grow faster and healthier. It is the simple fact of the constant movement that builds muscle faster. Fish which dont swim around very much are generally just fat fish and grow at a slightly slower pace.

Now for Wattley and his GIH "effect" IMO is a myth. It is all just a matter of maintaining proper water quality. Instead of a growth inhibiting hormone/phermone, I believe it is more like growth inhibiting "factors". Factors like high ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, low O2, poor feed quality, low/high temp etc. There has yet to be a study to prove that there are any types of hormones/phermones that are released to keep other fish smaller. It cant be proven because it doesnt exist. Maintain the proper water quality by keeping ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, O2, water flow, temp, etc. and all will be well for your fish.

And for the overall size of discus, it has A LOT to do with genetics. When I bred a lot of the newer color types they wouldnt always get to the huge size the classic types would (6" tops). The older, stronger types will easily get to a huge size. IMO, it has a lot to do with poor selection of cross/in breeding. The classic color types have been inbred quite a bit and have had a chance to breed out the weak characteristics. Which is why they can get to a huge size. The newer color types are in reality not all that old and they have been outcrossed to several different color types in order to get the desired color. When the Asian breeders did this, they dont always choose the best initial stock to cross with, which means any recessive traits can and will show up in generations down the line. This explains why some discus stock (say from the Stendker farm,which have been inbred for years ) can get to huge sizes (8"+) and why others (like discus from Asia) may not always grow to the owners expectations. So regardless of the water quality, some color types just wont grow as some people think they should.

-Ryan
Orlando Discus

ditto

 

[WyldFya]

Don't know what numbers you're asking for, but those discus are mine and they grew in a larger tank. I don't mean to seem out of hand but to say that discus grow larger in a smaller tank doesn't make sense on any level. And if it worked for you, were they the same strain, from the same parents, with the same water params the entire time?? Blanket statements made to seem like facts are what scares people about discus and I hope that folks only look at them for what they are, an opinion..........to the original poster, please read up on this lovely, and lively fish, and enjoy! I've kept and bred them off and on for 15 years and they thrive with good food and clean water..........you don't need to worry about PH, or RO, or other stuff...........someone out there has a great signature that says, "take care of your water and your fish will take care of themselves".....................good advice........

I don't doubt you have lots of knowledge about fish, in fact, from your posts you are very very informed..........I still call BS on the little tank growing larger fish.........it cant/doesn't make any scientific sense.

Burning of calories. Simply put, the larger tanks cause them more room to swim, which in turn causes a higher burn off of calories. This means less is left for growth. I tried this about a year ago. I got two discus from Mac's Discus, of nearly identical size both of the same stock, same batch of eggs, and grew them out. One in a 55, one in a 135. Both tanks received 50% water changes every day for 8 months. The discus in the 55 was nearly 2" larger in diameter at this point. Both were fed identical foods, at the same times. This information was actually given to me originally by the owner of Mac's discus. He was the one that keyed me into it, and at the time I didn't believe, but rather than discredit without knowing, I tried it, and the results were as he said. Larger tanks produce smaller discus.

I keep planted aquaria at very high levels, and test for pretty much every parameter there is. I monitor my parameters like a hawk, as I do have numerous species that are very sensitive to low or high levels of different nutrients.

 

[fishyjoe26]

bump, so I now have a 135 and getting rid of the fish I have. some say I can keep the plecos and cory catfish, and others say I can't. I also have the fx5 from the 225. some one said that is to much filtration is it, with that big of a filter will I still have to do once a day to 2 times a week,or once a week.

has anyone heard of ecological laboratories?
some one was telling me I need to get
discus vitamins & amino acids,discus properwater chemistry,amazon bio-colorant,
and amazon black and soft water conditioner from them. true I need to get,
or just some ones opinion?

 

[SusieQ]

Hi there... My goodness..
Well FishyJoe and Sledge as you can see there are many views on raising discus... go to the forum SimplyDiscus and you will find even more opinions.. Why you ask?? Because everyones experiences, tank setups and fish are completely different... even if the fish come from the very same batch of fry.. It's no different with raising dogs or for that matter children So what to do... Take the best of each and remember, even tho techniques may differ some basics apply such as that clean water/lots of water changes and lots of good food especially for tankraised juvies leads to healthy fish.. Unless you are looking to raise show fish or the biggest discus around, relax and enjoy your fish..
As to the size of the tank.. If this is a concern for you.. IME it is very easy to put a divider in a large tank with just a few discus so while they can still get their swimming exercise, they are not expending all their energy getting to the food... Since you are planning on juvies, you are gonna need to do many feedings and vacs of waste/left over food no matter what the size of the tank.. again if you use a divider you might be able to contain this to a smaller area.. If however you opt to get quite a few juvie fish or adult fish, I would just let them have the whole tank and feed in different areas at once so nobody is constantly exhausting themselves to get to the food. I've never had a fish fall down from exhaustion... They might not bulkup as much as some but again fish can be beautiful and healthy without being huge..
As you are a first time discus keeper, IMO you should not worry about vitamins,extracts and changing water parameters.. Your temps (82-86), and ph if consistent will be fine.. I suggest you keep only a bn with the discus if you want a bottom feeder/algae eater.. but if you get juvies and vac everyday you should not need one. Go for the KISS principle. (Keep It Simple Stupid).. For this reason I also suggest going barebottom with juvies..It's just plain easier... Having and raising discus should be fun and rewarding not rocket science or it becomes a chore and you will not enjoy the experience.. Just do a lot of research, talk to the breeder you are buying discus from and then go for it..
For me its water changes water changes and water changes along with qt and good food and consistency... Good luck with whatever you decide to do.. Sue