Do fish feel pain?

[zx1snowman]

Thanks to everybody that has responded, and sorry to take so long to respond back. I also type terribly slow and had a weekend project I needed to finish.

The two fish were stuck to the intake tubes on the canister filter, at separate times. I had to pull them off the intake.

I use a Fluval foam pad as a pre filter on the intake. The strainers that came with the filters have been removed.

I normally unplug the filter when I clean the pre filters. For a time when I unplugged the filters, they would start seeping water, so I did not unplug them until I got new gaskets/orings for the filter. I clean the pre filters twice a week.

The wounds were initially smaller. It has been more than a few weeks since the injuries.

The fish with the head wound swam normally for a few weeks, now he keeps his head in the corner by the intake most of the time. He does come out to eat. I also have a 10-inch Placo in the tank.

I have had these fish for about 6 years. They were hatched from eggs laid in my tank. I do not want to see them suffer.

If they were your fish, would you euthanize them?

I know using clove oil is the best way to euthanize fish.

 

[neko1]

Those are tumours not injuries. They appear on a lot of goldfish since most are not well bred and have a high rate of mutations. It could also be due to a viral infection in the lymps.

my rope eel used to have tumours like this on him. Some other fish ate it of him and it never appeared again or he cut them of by slithering on the ground. This was i think 6 years ago and the rope eel is still kicking. So i wouldnt euthanize them, maybe if you have the money surgical removal is possible? Or maybe try it yourself with some youtube knowledge? Im not sure but it might work

 

[GolemGolem]

My guess is all living things feel similar things, the diversity is in how they react and deal. I'd be pretty hard to study myself, I stub my toe and it is obvious I feel pain to any observer, I bent a motorcycle between my legs hard enough to break my pelvis in a couple places - and I was injured to any observer - but pain? Other than when they dropped my leg off the gurney? Not really. . .Deer, deer can look absolutely ghoulish with disease and injuries but their behaviour doesn't seem to change much at a glance. .
It's been weeks, they're still eating. I'd keep it going at this point.

 

[skjl47]

An animal that is completely unaware of damage to its body, and thus does nothing to escape from this sensation, would seem to be at a survival disadvantage. But, there are those fish that just keep biting, so...

Hello; This statement is what i consider to be correct. Any animal needs to be able to monitor the state of damage, injury and or infection of it's body. Those who cannot have some understanding of what causes damage and the extent of that damage would seem doomed as a species. The bacterial disease of leprosy in humans causes the infected person to lose pain sensations is what i understand. One of their main problems being they can feel injury or damage as pain. They wind up with infections and serious injury. A normal person gets a warning when we step on a nail or have an infection. One thing i have read is a person infected with that bacteria must do a visual exam over and over to check for problems. May sound like fun to be pain free but pain is our ally until it becomes chronic.
My knee let me know a few days ago to stop doing a particular move.

I know what the color green is to me but cannot be sure it appears the same to other humans. I know what getting stuck with a fish hook is to me but not to a fish. I also bend down the barbs of my fishhooks. Makes releasing a fish or pulling a hook out of my flesh so much easier. Most fish i do manage to land are hooked in the bony or cartilage mouth parts. I do not imagine there is much sensation in those parts. Must be sensation of some sort else how can the fish work the mouth parts around food.
The tongue, gills and parts which bleed seem likely to be even more sensitive. I also no longer use live baits in the hope the fish will not take an artificial bait down so deep.

Why do fish keep taking fishermen's hooked baits? Fish may not be too smart for one thing. But mainly they do not have too much choice. If something looks like food, they strike quickly else it gets away or some other fish gets it. A quick strike reaction perhaps done without analysis.
I do know when flyfishing there are at least two modes of feeding. One is a quick strike as soon as the topwater lure settles onto the surface. Lots of times I get one quick strike and if the hook is not taken i can cast back several times and no more strikes. Do the fish figure it is not real food by mouthing.
The other is when i let a bait stay for a bit and then start to pull in the line for the next cast or am distracted with a trolling motor or wondering how the fly line got around my feet. Sometimes i get a hookup that way.

I have caught fish with old hooks in their mouth or tongue. I carry enough tools so i can often remove those or at least cut them as short as possible so they do not interfere with the fish's feeding.

I can buy into that fish do not feel pain the same as I do. I cannot buy into what they do feel is not similar to pain.

 

[GolemGolem]

Why do fish keep taking fishermen's hooked baits? Fish may not be too smart for one thing. But mainly they do not have too much choice. If something looks like food, they strike quickly else it gets away or some other fish gets it.

I can buy into that fish do not feel pain the same as I do. I cannot buy into what they do feel is not similar to pain.

Lack of practical choice is important I think. If a fish eats with an old hook in its mouth, is it objectively not in pain? I had a bunch of teeth pulled a couple weeks ago, I figured I just wouldn't eat for a couple days because eating hurt, and getting food back outta the holes was gross, and also hurt. . .I lasted one day, and that is fine unless I was ready to go two weeks or more at which point I'd likely have much worse problems.

 

[kzimmerman]

I think it interesting how many opinions are on here, while ignoring the science. Fish do not experience pain like we do, the nerves and nervous system are not able to do that. I’ve heard it likened to feeling pressure, not pain.
It’s easy to humanize (?) our pets and think they feel the same as us, but the science says that fish are not the same as us. Sorry, but there’s facts here, opinions don’t really matter in the face of real science.

 

[jjohnwm]

There's science that empirically explains and describes the nature of the physiological systems in a fish which gather sensory data and transmit it to the brain. But...there is not even a completely accepted definition of "pain", at least not according to the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP). And if anybody should be able to nail down what pain is, they're the folks to ask...I mean, they even have a website and an acronym, so they must be legit...right?

The new definition they are currently pushing is very broad, including many more different responses than what most people probably consider pain. But the point here is that there is zero benefit in discussing whether or not fish feel pain, when we can't even agree what pain is.

They're fish; they're about as alien to us as any advanced life form on Earth can possibly be. Trying to push our anal compulsion to categorize and pigeonhole and define limits for absolutely everything is bound to cause confusion when we apply the same concepts to fish as we do to people.

I have to chuckle when I read that someone "knows" that clove oil is the must humane method of euthanizing fish. I have been present for a number of these disgusting executions, performed at the insistence of people too squeamish to do the humane thing by hand, and while some were less horrific than others, not one of them is what I would consider humane; neither quick nor painless. I'm sure the humans involved were able to rationalize and console themselves that they were being humane...not an easy task considering how some of these events went...but they were the only ones who gained any benefit. I guess it's that definition thing again...

 

[skjl47]

I think it interesting how many opinions are on here, while ignoring the science. Fish do not experience pain like we do, the nerves and nervous system are not able to do that. I’ve heard it likened to feeling pressure, not pain.
It’s easy to humanize (?) our pets and think they feel the same as us, but the science says that fish are not the same as us. Sorry, but there’s facts here, opinions don’t really matter in the face of real science.

Hello; interesting take. That humans are different than other animals does not necessarily mean they do not share similar traits. In this discussion it is the nature of nervous systems. Eyes, for example, can vary among animal species buy generally do the same sort of job.
I get the pressure is different than pain to some degree but degree matters. In people pressure can become pain as the pressure increases. The pressure/ pain responses may be in some technical way different between fish and people. However, when pressure becomes damaging enough, I fail to see how the interpretation by the fish is significantly different than pain. Crush me or poke a hole in my body and I call it pain. Do the same for a fish and I figure the pressure becomes intense enough to closely mimic pain. Something to be avoided because of the damage.

Saw an lil Abner cartoon strip many decades ago. Somehow a creature called a schmoo (sp) was in the cartoon. it's purpose in life was to please people. If it sensed a person was hungry a schmoo would voluntarily become a tasty meal on the spot which tasted like chicken. I imagine there was some point to those Sunday cartoon strips back then but dod not know what it was. Today it makes me think of how people make assumptions about food animals.
Talked to a young farmer yesterday. He told me how he had a calf down yesterday morning and could not get her up. He casually mentioned how it took two 9mm shots to the head to put her down. Point being some on this forum would be bent out of shape when it comes to killing an animal while to farmers it is just another chore and part of everyday work.

I would have put the two fish in the pictures down early on. I also kill fish I cannot re-home or keep before releasing them into a pond or stream. I do avoid getting fish my tanks cannot hold but sometimes wind up with a neighbors give away fish. Had this happen when a neighbor lost his home years ago. I took in a pleco which out grew the tank. I was lucky and did find a home for it eventually.

 

[kzimmerman]

I guess the answer is that, no, fish do not feel pain like we do. At least that’s the science of it.

 

[skjl47]

I guess the answer is that, no, fish do not feel pain like we do. At least that’s the science of it.

Hello; I can agree with part of the statement. That fish do not appear to feel pain the same way we people do. Fish and people have differences in the numbers and arrangements of neurons and associated fibers. The science shows that much it appears.
Back to my example of eyes. That different animals clearly have different eye structures is also shown by dissection and study. Some in the case of insects have dramatically different eye structures, ie compound eyes.
My point still being however that no matter how an eye is wired it is the equivalent of other eyes if it allows the animal to see. Not talking about which eye "sees" better than another. I get that on some "primitive" animals the part we might do a stretch and call an eye appears to only function to discriminate between levels of light and dark. Among animals the see images our eyes are not all that great.

I get that fish have a different nervous system from us in ways. They do have some advantages we do not. Their lateral line is a sophisticated sense organ. Thing is as has already been pointed out by another member and not just me, any animal need mechanisms to know it is damaged and/or it is a good thing to stop doing some action. I do not allow my hand to linger on a hot stove because it hurts immediately. More so if i did not have a sensation of pain I might allow the hand to be badly burned and thus risk my survival. I contend that fish and other animals have sensory capacity to do something similar. Call it only pressure if you must but my take is fish are a bit more sophisticated than that.

I do not however claim fish are smart enough to think ahead the same way we do. Once i did place a hand on a hot stove as a child i continue to know better now that i am 75 years old. I do know fish can learn. I started a feeding routine with my tanks a few times and the fish soon enough learned to respond.