Drilling a tank, Plumbing, Over flow set up thoughts and suggestions please

[Aquaticfan]

Its been a while since ive done some of this.. so.. refresher course needed. so here is the questions.

Later today ive got a buddy coming over to drill the 125's for overflow and return holes.

Here is what I have............... Im doing the box overflows you silicone in place to the inside of the tank. Would you do 2 overflows, one in each corner? Or just 1 larger overflow box in 1 corner? If doing one overflow, would you drill only 1 drain hole and T it off to the inlets of the wet dry or drill 2 drain holes for individual drain lines. I cant do it in the center due to center glass support in the way so im doing it in the corner. Also Would you drill holes for single or dual return? What about Placement? Im going to run a single Mag drive pump. Mag drive 18 pump (1800gph at zero. with my head height should be right at 1200gph). The wet dry is a very large 50 gallon set up. twin bio chamber dual inlet hose single or dual out.

I also want to make the drain pretty quiet. any tips or suggestions? As well as what size drain tube? Id like to hard plumb all of it.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[David R]

If you want itto be quiet you will want more than one drain so you can run a 'bean animal' type set up with one drain operating as a full siphon and the other taking what the full siphon can't.

The returns are personal preference really, I'd just go for one to keep it simple, the less corners and junctions the better for flow. Just make sure it isn't too low so it doesn't siphon too much water when the pump switches off.

 

[Aquaticfan]

If you want itto be quiet you will want more than one drain so you can run a 'bean animal' type set up with one drain operating as a full siphon and the other taking what the full siphon can't.

The returns are personal preference really, I'd just go for one to keep it simple, the less corners and junctions the better for flow. Just make sure it isn't too low so it doesn't siphon too much water when the pump switches off.

Thanks for the replay David. Id agree on the simple part. Havent ever done a "bean animal" drain set up, will have to get educated on it. I assume it can be used in a oveflow box?

This is the box that gets secured at one of the corners of the tank inside at the top of the tank for proper water level of course. This box is what should control the water level and how full the sump gets when the pump is off. I assume you install this "bean animal" inside? Ive done some google searching and see how it sorta works. Looks like a bit more plumbing. I assume its self starting for the Syphon? Looks like according to the video and pictures ive looked at for the Syphon with this system you need 3 holes drilled for the drain and then Id need one for a return bulkhead. So a total of 4 holes drilled. Correct? Or are there other methods or suggestions that are less involved? How about drain size to get the properly matched flow?

 

[rbarn]

Bean-Animal full siphon overflow. dead silent. MUST use 3 drain pipes - I set my custom tank up with corner overflow boxes with 4 bulkhead openings each. 3x for B/A overflow and 1x for return in each corner. This is the best and only way to do an overflow box - IMO
http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx


Calculator to figure how big a pipe for how much flow
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

 

[David R]

I don't see why it MUST use three pipes, if the full siphon is capable of handling most of the flow and the second drain is also of a good size then the third back up isn't (IMO) necessary, I certainly won't be using one. With a reef or a planted tank where there is a higher likelihood of the overflow becoming blocked a back up would be advisable, or if for some reason you can't/won't/don't use some sort of overflow comb.


Aquaticfan; the basic premise of the system is to have one drain that is running as a full siphon (ie not sucking any air in, therefore silent) and another only flowing a small amount of water in proportion to the size of the pipe so the water flows down the sides of the pipe with an undisturbed air column in the centre (also silent, or nearly silent). All you really need is one drain lower than the other and a ball valve on that lower drain to set the flow so it isn't sucking in any air.

Yes it is a self-starting siphon, if set up correctly when the pump switches on the water level in the overflow rises to above the intake for the drain until it isn't sucking in air. You want the lower drain to be taking ~80-90% of the flow from the pump and the other one to be taking what ever is left.

This is the box that gets secured at one of the corners of the tank inside at the top of the tank for proper water level of course. This box is what should control the water level and how full the sump gets when the pump is off.

It will set the level so long as the opening on the return is higher than the level the water would drain to when the pump switches off. If the return is lower than the weir it will siphon down to the level of the return unless you install a non-return valve [not advisable IMO] or drill a hole close to the water level to break the siphon.

 

[Aquaticfan]

Bean-Animal full siphon overflow. dead silent. MUST use 3 drain pipes - I set my custom tank up with corner overflow boxes with 4 bulkhead openings each. 3x for B/A overflow and 1x for return in each corner. This is the best and only way to do an overflow box - IMO
http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx


Calculator to figure how big a pipe for how much flow
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/hydraulics-for-the-aquarist.aspx

Thanks for the links!! Much appreciated.

 

[Aquaticfan]

I don't see why it MUST use three pipes, if the full siphon is capable of handling most of the flow and the second drain is also of a good size then the third back up isn't (IMO) necessary, I certainly won't be using one. With a reef or a planted tank where there is a higher likelihood of the overflow becoming blocked a back up would be advisable, or if for some reason you can't/won't/don't use some sort of overflow comb.


Aquaticfan; the basic premise of the system is to have one drain that is running as a full siphon (ie not sucking any air in, therefore silent) and another only flowing a small amount of water in proportion to the size of the pipe so the water flows down the sides of the pipe with an undisturbed air column in the centre (also silent, or nearly silent). All you really need is one drain lower than the other and a ball valve on that lower drain to set the flow so it isn't sucking in any air.

Yes it is a self-starting siphon, if set up correctly when the pump switches on the water level in the overflow rises to above the intake for the drain until it isn't sucking in air. You want the lower drain to be taking ~80-90% of the flow from the pump and the other one to be taking what ever is left.



It will set the level so long as the opening on the return is higher than the level the water would drain to when the pump switches off. If the return is lower than the weir it will siphon down to the level of the return unless you install a non-return valve [not advisable IMO] or drill a hole close to the water level to break the siphon.

Thanks for the great info David. Makes alot of sense and helps. Should be pretty easy to set up.

 

[rbarn]

I don't see why it MUST use three pipes, if the full siphon is capable of handling most of the flow and the second drain is also of a good size then the third back up isn't (IMO) necessary, I certainly won't be using one. With a reef or a planted tank where there is a higher likelihood of the overflow becoming blocked a back up would be advisable, or if for some reason you can't/won't/don't use some sort of overflow comb.

You can make it work with 2 - but you are asking for a flood some day in the future when something goes wrong. The 3rd emergency overflow pipe is a must in my opinion. The 3rd pipe also helps with overflow when the pump first starts and stops and the full siphon pipe is still purging air and not up to full flow yet.


Also instead of a ball valve on the main siphon pipe, try using a gate valve. They cost more, but it is infinitely easier to get them dialed in to the proper flow. Ball valves can be frustrating because just a small move will open or close the flow more than you want.

 

[guano]

Mag drive 18 pump (1800gph at zero. with my head height should be right at 1200gph). The wet dry is a very large 50 gallon set up. twin bio chamber dual inlet hose single or dual out.

I switched from Mag to Laguana Max Flo and I'm very happy I did. Laguna pumps are much more efficient and quieter then Mag drives. Not a huge fan of wet dry because they are noisy, may have to use baffles depending on setup, take up quite a bit of space, and cool the tank off a little. I like to keep the sump very simple (filter socks for mechanical, heater, matrix for bio, and return pump) just because it keeps the maintenance easy. The easier it is, the more likely you will clean it regularly. If the sump is already setup for wet dry, then I would go for it.

It will set the level so long as the opening on the return is higher than the level the water would drain to when the pump switches off. If the return is lower than the weir it will siphon down to the level of the return unless you install a non-return valve [not advisable IMO] or drill a hole close to the water level to break the siphon.

+1 I drilled two holes near to the water level on my return just in case one gets clogged.

You can make it work with 2 - but you are asking for a flood some day in the future when something goes wrong. The 3rd emergency overflow pipe is a must in my opinion. The 3rd pipe also helps with overflow when the pump first starts and stops and the full siphon pipe is still purging air and not up to full flow yet.

IMO, If you are going to do the bean animal setup, I would do three drains just because how your overflow box is not that deep. Not to say that two drains will not work, but the dimensions of your overflow box may cause issues restarting the siphon.

IME, two drains can work just fine without the fear of overflowing as long as one drain is in full siphon, the other drain is used as an emergency drain, and there is at least a six inch separation in height between the two drains. I use the herbie drain setup and I have simulated a main drain blockage by closing the ball valve. My emergency drain took up all the slack. But when I had the main drain height just 3 inches below the emergency drain height, my siphon had trouble restarting. Lowered the main drain and haven't had any issues restarting the siphon.

Although this link won't help you with your current overflow box setup, it might be a good read just to understand another way to do a silent overflow http://gmacreef.com/herbie-overflow-reef-tank-plumbing-method-basics/

Also instead of a ball valve on the main siphon pipe, try using a gate valve. They cost more, but it is infinitely easier to get them dialed in to the proper flow. Ball valves can be frustrating because just a small move will open or close the flow more than you want.

I agree! I have ball valves on my main drains and it was a pain in the butt to fine tune them. But once tuned, I rarely have to adjust them.

 

[David R]

+1 on the Laguna vs Mag Drive thing, I've never had a Mag and going by the power consumption vs flow I won't ever be having one!

You can make it work with 2 - but you are asking for a flood some day in the future when something goes wrong. The 3rd emergency overflow pipe is a must in my opinion. The 3rd pipe also helps with overflow when the pump first starts and stops and the full siphon pipe is still purging air and not up to full flow yet.

In 12+ years of running tanks with overflows and sumps with only a single drain I have never had a flood from a blocked drain, though after having a couple of close calls early on with fish like Polypterus or Eels getting into the overflow box I always have some sort of overflow comb/mesh that prevents anything large enough to block the pipe to get near the drains. That said, with a Bean Animal type set up I'd consider having a third back-up drain if the size of my second drain wasn't big enough to handle most/all of the flow from the pump. My 2000L tank will have two 50mm drains, one lower than the other with a ball valve to run as a full siphon, the other as the 'spare' to take the remainder of the water. My pump will be pushing around 2500gph, and according to the sticky in the DIY Filters forum a 2"/50mm drain is capable of flowing 2400GPH. The likelihood of two objects large enough to completely block both 50mm drains making it through the mesh on the top of my overflow at the same time is pretty slim.

Either way, redundancy is always a good think in this kind of situation.